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09-21-2019, 12:09 AM   #91
Andreas

Join Date: Mar 2014
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gollum It has been discussed over and over in many threads ... But no matter, let's see the arguments again ... Is Hafthor Bjornsson a ST 20 character in GURPS terms? ST 20 = BL 80 = can lift 640 lbs over his head dozens of times without the least hour of training and without the least extra effort. So, the answer is no, even if he is very strong, he isn't as strong than that. St 19? 577,6 lbs over his head without effort nor training. ST 18? 518,4 lbs ... And so on ... So, Mr Hafthor Bjornsson is strong, yes. Very strong. But ST 15, the good skills, and extra effort may be enough for what he does. Because he is very well trained and makes a lot of efforts for his feats.
Then (as also mentioned in multiple threads) there is his Carry On Back feat (which in according to the rules, is not a Lift, simplifying the calculations a lot).

That gives him a ST well over 20.

Carry on Back: 15xBL. He carried a 1,433 pound log, which means ST very close to 22.

Last edited by Andreas; 09-21-2019 at 12:14 AM.

09-21-2019, 04:00 AM   #92
Gollum

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Andreas Then (as also mentioned in multiple threads) there is his Carry On Back feat (which in according to the rules, is not a Lift, simplifying the calculations a lot). That gives him a ST well over 20. Carry on Back: 15xBL. He carried a 1,433 pound log, which means ST very close to 22.
Nope. That gives him ST well over 20 only if he can do that without any training, without extra effort, every time he wants to ... Which is very far to be true.

It is a world record, which requires a lot of training (he probably has lifting skill above 15), a lot of extra effort and, in GURPS terms, some luck to the success roll ...
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09-21-2019, 04:05 AM   #93
Gollum

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by maximara As you can see the way skills and attributes interact makes things get complicated in a hurry.
Yes. Which is not really a problem because the GM doesn't need those rules except for a very important lifting task, in which case making the calculation and rolling the dice add some suspense to the game ...

Will Hafthor Bjornsson succeed to beat his own world record? The crowd go crazy when he put his hands on the bar ...
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Last edited by Gollum; 09-21-2019 at 04:09 AM.

09-21-2019, 04:09 AM   #94
Andreas

Join Date: Mar 2014
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gollum Nope. That gives him ST well over 20 only if he can do that without any training, without extra effort, every time he wants to ... Which is very far to be true. It is a world record, which requires a lot of training (he probably has lifting skill above 15), a lot of extra effort and, in GURPS terms, some luck to the success roll ...
No, as I mentioned in my previous post, Carry On Back is not a Lift. Therefore Lifting skill does no apply to it. Of course he has still trained, but that is reflected by his ST (Lifting ST specifically).

Carry On Back is by default something which takes extreme effort (you lose one FP per second!). Also, as far as I know, there are no Extra Effort rules which applies to it either (probably not needed anyway since as mentioned it is already a very strenuous activity).

Last edited by Andreas; 09-21-2019 at 04:15 AM.

09-21-2019, 04:26 AM   #95
Gollum

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Andreas No, as I mentioned in my previous post, Carry On Back is not a Lift. Therefore Lifting skill does no apply to it. Of course he has still trained, but that is reflected by his ST (Lifting ST specifically). Carry On Back is by default something which takes extreme effort (you lose one FP per second!). Also, as far as I know, there are no Extra Effort rules which applies to it either (probably not needed anyway since as mentioned it is already a very strenous activity).
Extra effort can clearly be used for carrying things on back:

"Lifting and Moving Things: For every minute of continuing effort, make an extra-effort roll and pay 1 FP. (This cost adds to the 1 FP per second for carrying encumbrance over 10xBL, if applicable.)", Basic Set, Campaigns, page 357.

But you are right for the Lifting skill:

"This has no effect on encumbrance, or on how much you can carry.", Basic Set, Characters, page 205.

So, a GURPS Hafthor Bjornsson character would probably just use his Will instead of a skill (which probably is quite high, too).

Such a feat may require more than ST 15, but not necessarily as high as 20 ... And ST 20 or more would make his other feats much too easy.

Furthermore, I don't have time to make some more research but there are probably some advantages or perks which allow to carry more without having to raise general Strength.
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09-21-2019, 04:55 AM   #96
maximara

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl Lifting and Extra Effort modify BL, not ST (Basic, p. 205 & p. 353).
True, B356 says "You can use extra effort to increase Basic Lift (but not ST itself) when digging or lifting..."

But the text on B357 regarding how to apply that extra effort states:

"Modifiers: -1 per 5% increase in capabilities (e.g., to add 10% to ST, roll at -2)."

So extra effort improves BL but the penalties are calculated on ST not BL. Which turns things into the somewhat ugly (ST*(1+x*.05)*ST*(1+x*.05)/5 which turns into ((ST*ST)*(1+x*0.05)^2)/5 which "simplifies" into (ST^2*(1+0.1x+.0025x^2))/5

So my "That is ignoring the extra effort which is a will roll and gives +5% to ST itself for each -1 to the Will roll so the (ST*ST)/5 formula becomes (ST*1.05*ST*1.05)/5 or (ST*ST)*1.1025/5 which gets the ST 20 down to 18 and a -2 to will gets 16.5 and -3 get us down to ST 15.1." is completely correct per B357.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Andreas No, as I mentioned in my previous post, Carry On Back is not a Lift. Therefore Lifting skill does no apply to it. Of course he has still trained, but that is reflected by his ST (Lifting ST specifically).
Uh, Lifting ST is an exotic advantage which per B32 "Exotic advantages are traits that ordinary humans cannot have without ultra-tech body modification or similar tampering" so I would avoid using that to model a real person.
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Last edited by maximara; 09-21-2019 at 05:17 AM.

09-21-2019, 05:00 AM   #97

Join Date: Aug 2004
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gollum Is Hafthor Bjornsson a ST 20 character in GURPS terms? ST 20 = BL 80 = can lift 640 lbs over his head dozens of times without the least hour of training and without the least extra effort.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Gollum Nope. That gives him ST well over 20 only if he can do that without any training, without extra effort, every time he wants to ... Which is very far to be true. It is a world record, which requires a lot of training (he probably has lifting skill above 15), a lot of extra effort and, in GURPS terms, some luck to the success roll ...
Without any training? Do you think he popped out of his mother's womb with that ST score? Aged 18 he looked like this. Training (And in his case, steroids) is what gets you such an absurdly high ST score. Nobody starts out like that.
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Last edited by NineDaysDead; 09-21-2019 at 05:04 AM.

09-21-2019, 05:25 AM   #98
AlexanderHowl

Join Date: Feb 2016
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by maximara True, B356 says "You can use extra effort to increase Basic Lift (but not ST itself) when digging or lifting..." But the text on B357 regarding how to apply that extra effort states: "Modifiers: -1 per 5% increase in capabilities (e.g., to add 10% to ST, roll at -2)." So extra effort improves BL but the penalties are calculated on ST not BL. So my "That is ignoring the extra effort which is a will roll and gives +5% to ST itself for each -1 to the Will roll so the (ST*ST)/5 formula becomes (ST*1.05*ST*1.05)/5 or (ST*ST)*1.1025/5 which gets the ST 20 down to 18 and a -2 to will gets 16.5 and -3 get us down to ST 15.1." is completely correct per B357.
No, it is a flat -1 to Will per +5% to BL. Increases to direct ST only occur for throwing, ST rolls, or drawing a bow/cocking a crossbow with too high a ST (Basic, p. 356-357).

Since 8×BL is the maximum two-handed lift of an individual, we can calculate from there. 1,040 lbs would is 62.5% above 640, the Basic Lift×8 of ST 20, meaning that he would have had to have succeeded on a Will-based Lifting roll at -7, difficult, but not impossible.

09-21-2019, 05:35 AM   #99
maximara

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by NineDaysDead Without any training? Do you think he popped out of his mother's womb with that ST score? Aged 18 he looked like this. Training (And in his case, steroids) is what gets you such an absurdly high ST score. Nobody starts out like that.
You missed the actually point being raised here.

The Lifting Skill "increases your Basic Lift by 5% times your margin of success for the purpose of picking up heavy objects". The formula is ((1+(0.05x))*ST^ST/5 or ST = square root of (BL*5*(1+(0.05x))

However the modifiers for Extra Effort are figured off of ST not BL which produces the somewhat ugly (ST^2*(1+0.1x+.0025x^2))/5

Using both can get his ST down to a reasonable 15.
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Last edited by maximara; 09-21-2019 at 05:39 AM.

09-21-2019, 05:46 AM   #100
maximara

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

Quote:
 Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl No, it is a flat -1 to Will per +5% to BL. Increases to direct ST only occur for throwing, ST rolls, or drawing a bow/cocking a crossbow with too high a ST (Basic, p. 356-357).
Except the Lifting skill changes all that: "When using Lifting skill, make a single Will-based Lifting roll, at -1 per 10% extra Basic Lift. This is instead of the
usual 5% bonus per point of success". In short they just dumped the .0025x^2 part of the equation I figured out and limited it to those with the lifting skill which makes the math way simpler.
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Last edited by maximara; 09-21-2019 at 06:19 AM.

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