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Old 09-06-2012, 12:25 AM   #1
Blood Legend
 
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Default Slam Damage is Very Weak

Any elegant solutions for solving this problem?

One being has ST20, we'll call him Goliath. The other only has ST6, we'll call him David. All other factors are equal. No armor, no weapons, no training, no nothing.

With a full move, and with or without All-Out Attack (Strong), assuming that both of them always roll to hit and fail to dodge; I'm to understand that the Goliath only has an average of 2 points of damage over David?

2 whole damage?

I understand that David is going to hate 2 damage a lot more than ST10 Average Joe, but that's a product of the defender being weak, not of the attacker being strong. (Case in point, David's evil clone Divad will screw David's day pretty badly as well.)

Goliath could just punch David for twice the damage without all the horrible negatives and disadvantages and be done with it. Why slam at all ever?

Shoves are also terrible. Goliath doing a 1 handed push does 8 non-wounding damage to David, and pushes him back only a single yard, at which he has a 50% chance of resisting. A 2 handed push moves him 2 yards but his chances of deliberately resisting don't fall by much.

Goliath versus Joe? Olympian versus Starbucks Employee? Same thing.

Granted he doesn't get kicked in the head trying, Goliath could just do a 2-handed lift and throw David or Joe as encumbrance. Joe takes 1d+1 and David takes 1d with the added benefit of totally making sure both of them have a snowballs chance in hell of sticking the landing correctly.

If Goliath gets really angry, and gods help the GM who has to figure out the penalties for this one, He could just pick David or Joe up by the ankles and whip them into the pavement for Swing.

Can someone explain to me how swinging a man around to throw him does less damage than holding onto his ankles when he hits something? I'm pretty sure it would, I just don't know why.

All this assuming I'm accurate, and that a GM would totally let me get away with swinging children around like mallets.

Game issues aside, is this realistic? An all-out shield bash against a mildly armored foe doesn't seem like it does a lot of damage.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:38 AM   #2
gilbertocarlos
 
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

If you have ST20, Move 5 you can do a slam with 1d+3 damage.

20*6(For sprint)=1,2=1d+1, All Out Attack=1d+3.
OTOH, If you have ST7, you will do 1d-1 at best.

Also, you can use a shield, it increases damage, you can aim for legs, increasing chance to fall, and if both are running against the other, damage is doubled, since speed is doubled.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Legend View Post
Any elegant solutions for solving this problem?

One being has ST20, we'll call him Goliath. The other only has ST6, we'll call him David. All other factors are equal. No armor, no weapons, no training, no nothing.

With a full move, and with or without All-Out Attack (Strong), assuming that both of them always roll to hit and fail to dodge; I'm to understand that the Goliath only has an average of 2 points of damage over David?

2 whole damage?

I understand that David is going to hate 2 damage a lot more than ST10 Average Joe, but that's a product of the defender being weak, not of the attacker being strong. (Case in point, David's evil clone Divad will screw David's day pretty badly as well.)

Goliath could just punch David for twice the damage without all the horrible negatives and disadvantages and be done with it. .
What horrible negatives and disadvantages? The reason why a normal person slams is because it's the only way to Move and Attack that doesn't cap your effective skill at 9.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:31 AM   #4
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Body slamming is intended to be a poor way to deal real injury between people, because it is.
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Get a big shield. Get Weapon Master if possible. Use All-Out and/or Mighty Blows. Slam unexpectedly. Expect a downed opponent, as even the very weak damage should be enough to make a knockdown likely.
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
Body slamming is intended to be a poor way to deal real injury between people, because it is.
Pretty much in a nutshell. You'll note that very very very few martial arts focus on shoulder-checking people to death.
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

I'm going to show my math:

Goliath (ST20, Move 5)
David (ST6, Move 5)

Goliath slams into David.
Goliath's Damage Calculation: (HP x velocity)/100 = Damage
(20 x 5)/100 = 1d of damage to David.
David's Damage Calculation: (6 x 5)/100 = .3 or 1d-2 damage to Goliath.

So, yes, on average Goliath beats David by 2 pts of damage...and chances are very high that Goliath is going to achieve the goal of the Slam...which is not to do damage, by the way, but to knock someone down. Also because of the numbers, Goliath is also quite likely to do more than twice David's damage, making the knockdown automatic.

Goliath may also do a few things without equipment or special skills to increase his damage over David, and therefore his ability to guarantee knockdown with no DX roll on David's part.

If he All Out Attacks (or Mighty Blows), he gets to add +2 to his damage, making it 1d+2 over David's 1d-2. That will almost certainly result in David being knocked down.

I suppose it is just important to note that the purpose of the Slam is not do damage your opponent, but to knock them down.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Don't forget Sumo Wrestling: at DX +2, it adds 2 damage per die to Slam damage. It's the right skill for the job if Goliath wants to absolutely flatten David.

I think it was Icelander who came up with the brilliant idea of taking Weapon Adaptation (Shield with Sumo Wrestling) to add this damage to a Shield Slam. But your combatants are naked on an infinite field, so we'll ignore that possibility for now.

So, if Goliath has Sumo at DX +2, he can All-Out Attack for 1d+4, which virtually guarantees a knockdown and probably brings David below 0 hit points. Personally, I'd do All-Out (Determined) and drop those +4 to hit into Deceptive (reducing Damage to the perfectly adequate 1d+2), so that it's sure to be successful.

Last edited by aesir23; 09-06-2012 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:49 AM   #9
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

I'll add, however, that I agree that Shoves and Slams should be more effective than they are in real life. For one thing, it's just as easy to avoid injuring yourself on a slam as it is with a punch (i.e. not very, Newton's second law doesn't play favorites).

One of the martial arts I study (Bajiquan)*, focuses a lot of training on slamming into your foe with your whole body (shoulder or hip, usually.) Granted the point isn't to cause injury, it's to knock your opponent back (or down), but it also doesn't injure us. I've done plenty of full contact, full force drills (probably Committed Attacks to boot). And yes I get a little bruised both attacking and defending, but nothing that I would call a GURPS Injury.


*For a GURPS write up of Baji, see here.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: Slam Damage is Very Weak

Two points:

1. Why is Goliath slamming David (and vice versa); he should be GRAPPLING him, where his superior ST will probably let him tear off limbs or simply crush David. David, fearing exactly that, should be trying to strike at vitals in hit and run techniques, or find some rocks and start throwing.

2. Goliath has 20 HP, David has 6; even if Goliath is only doing 2 extra damage from his ST by using dubious slams, because for some reason both forces have decided to use slams, David will expire long before Goliath is even slowing down.
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