Unintentional slam suicide

[Silhouette]

Sorry, I just cant understand it, no matter how I try:

1) If I run and collide with something super-hard and absolutely-immovable, like a stone wall, I'll hurt myself by 2*hp*velocity/100 dices of damage. Something like 2*10*5/100 = 1d. B431.

2) If I collide with elephant's butt, I'll hurt myself by [HIS HP]*velocity/100 dices of damage, like 50*5/100 = 2.5d. B371.

3) If I collide with sleeping Giant Stone Armadillo, I'll hurt myself by [HIS HP]*velocity/100 dices of damage, like 400*5/100 = 20d, will definitely die, and my dead body will bounce 9 yards back. B371.

So, three questions:
1) Am I missing something very important?
2) Is it possible to make slam/collision rules more... emm... merciful, without praying to my GM? (He tends to resolve everything using RAW rules).
3) Is slamming someone much-bigger-than-you is always a suicide, or it is possible to make a sumo-wrestler in fantasy universe (where there are lots of HP 30+ monsters)?

I'm writing this post because I'm trying to save my character, who foolishly collided with a big monster's back. I thought it won't hurt more that stone wall. Looks like I was wrong.

[vierasmarius]

It shouldn't hurt more than slamming a stone wall. Realistically, both the slammer and slammee should take equal damage based on the mass of the smaller object. This is why people can fall onto the ground and not instantly explode from the Earth's (literally) astronomical HP.

[Silhouette]

Well, my common sense tells me the same, but I'm trying to find some kind of official confirmation.

My character is already "technically dead", but if I'll find some kind of proof in rules, I can hope for "miraculous resurrection".

I had 8 HP before collision, and my GM tries to convince me that I'm dead now.

<...hate, hate, hate...>

[vierasmarius]

Unfortunately, based on RAW, he's absolutley right. In fact, if you had slammed into a HP 400 wall of pillows and ducklings, it would have had the same effect on you - and far greater than diving head-first into the ground.

Maybe you can convince him that the Slam rules should only be used if colliding with a resisting target, and in the case of a sleeping enemy he should use the collision rules instead.

[d_ns]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Unfortunately, based on RAW, he's absolutley right. In fact, if you had slammed into a HP 400 wall of pillows and ducklings, it would have had the same effect on you - and far greater than diving head-first into the ground.

Maybe you can convince him that the Slam rules should only be used if colliding with a resisting target, and in the case of a sleeping enemy he should use the collision rules instead.

I just did a complete search of every PDF I have (and that's most of them, 4E) and find that there doesn't appear to be any alternative rules listed. So I'd have to suggest the same thing. Plead semantics, and to his sense of being reasonable.

You might ask if any of the creature's HP were granted because of something other than sheer size - as those HP ought not to be included in total HP when calculating slam damage (that was mentioned in a sidebar in Martial Arts)

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by d_ns

You might ask if any of the creature's HP were granted because of something other than sheer size - as those HP ought not to be included in total HP when calculating slam damage (that was mentioned in a sidebar in Martial Arts)

True. A 400 HP creature should weigh roughly 4000 tons.

[Classic Uncle Sam]

How did this happen exactly? Did you do a full move into a dark place where this sleeping creature was and you ran into him? Was it out of "combat time" or in?

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Silhouette

Sorry, I just cant understand it, no matter how I try:

1) If I run and collide with something super-hard and absolutely-immovable, like a stone wall, I'll hurt myself by 2*hp*velocity/100 dices of damage. Something like 2*10*5/100 = 1d. B431.

2) If I collide with elephant's butt, I'll hurt myself by [HIS HP]*velocity/100 dices of damage, like 50*5/100 = 2.5d. B371.

3) If I collide with sleeping Giant Stone Armadillo, I'll hurt myself by [HIS HP]*velocity/100 dices of damage, like 400*5/100 = 20d, will definitely die, and my dead body will bounce 9 yards back. B371.

So, three questions:
1) Am I missing something very important?

You are upset that colliding with an elephant's butt or a Giant Stone Armadillo will hurt more than running into a super-hard and absolutely-immovable stone wall. You ask if you are missing something very important. I'd say you are. Your calculations are all off.

Your calculations for that stone wall are totally off. You give the stone wall 10hp. "2*10*5/100 = 1d." Stone walls do not have 10hp. If you turn to B558, you'll see the listed hp for stone walls. Since you describe it as super-hard and absolutely-immovable, I'm going to go with the stats of an 8' wall. That's 188hp (not 10!). The calculation for that slam damage? 2*188*5/100 = 19d.

You give the elephant 50hp, B460 lists it at 45hp, but let's look at the calculations both ways. At the listed 45hp you get, 45*5/100 = 2.25d =2d. At 50hp you get, 50*5/100 =2.5d =3d. So you are looking at either 2d or 3d slam damage. *Much* less than the 19d for running into the stone wall.

So now this giant stone armadillo. It has 400hp? That means it is thicker and bigger and harder than that stone wall so it would make sense it would do more damage than the stone wall...though it only does 1d more...so they are quite equivalent. Your only hope would be that not all of that 400hp comes from mass (see Martial Arts p.49 the box on extra hit points)...but since we are talking about a Giant Stone Armadillo...it does seem like those hp represent mass.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

I've personally "patched" this with a simple houserule: A participant in a collision can never take more dice of damage than they would take in an identical-speed collision with a hard surface such as the ground (Modifiers like All-Out (Strong) or Weapon Master are applied after this cap).

[Silhouette]

Originally Posted by Classic Uncle Sam

How did this happen exactly? Did you do a full move into a dark place where this sleeping creature was and you ran into him? Was it out of "combat time" or in?

That was a combat situation.
He was standing near the cliff's edge (conveniently and invitingly close, I should say), and I was hoping to throw him down.
I ran 5 hexes and slammed with "brawling" skill. He was busy with another character, so he didn't even noticed my move, and we just collided.
Battle map:

_______edge_____________________________
[Allan] x x )>-8[Monster]--x x x x
.x x x x x x x x x x x x x ^ x x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x \\ x x x x
.x x x x x x x x x x x x x x \\ x x x
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x \\ x x x
.x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x [me] x

Obviously, trying to move something that huge was my mistake, but I didn't expected that GM will roll like a bucket of dices in response, and ask me to roll HT or die from collision.

BTW, I don't know how much HP that thing had. We should've probably just run away, but...

Anyway, I just can't understand how collision with someone can hurt me more than collision with an immovable object.

Originally Posted by trooper6

Since you describe it as super-hard and absolutely-immovable, I'm going to go with the stats of an 8' wall. That's 188hp (not 10!). The calculation for that slam damage? 2*188*5/100 = 19d.

Are you telling me that if ordinary BM5 HP10 character will run into a stone wall, he will die and bounce back 2-14 yards?