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Old 01-13-2012, 01:29 PM   #31
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Presumably you are supposed to just use the stat-block as is, without trying to dissect it in the first place.
I'm not sure that helps, because it doesn't give a figure for jumping Move, just the Move 3. I suppose it might be assumed that nobody will remember the bit about Super Jumps from Characters, and will therefore equate jumping distance with Move, but as a newbie DF GM will have to reference Characters a lot to understand what not just Super Jump, but IT (Diffuse), Fragile (Unnatural), and many other such traits actually do, I don't think looking it up counts as dissection.

It's also of note that for the longer leaps, the turtle has a good chance of inflicting a Major Wound on itself with a Slam even through shell DR. Average for 7d+7 comes to 31-32 HP, -12 for max DR comes to 19-20 HP of damage. Even for the shorter Slams, the FP cost is almost irrelevant - it'll knock itself out long before it fatigues itself too much.

Or is there an unspoken genre convention that Slams only do damage to the target in DF that I'm unaware of?

Last edited by vitruvian; 02-10-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:24 PM   #32
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
It's also of note that for the longer leaps, the turtle has a good chance of inflicting a Major Wound on itself with a Slam even through shell DR. Average for 7d+7 comes to 31-32 HP, -12 for max DR comes to 19-20 HP of damage. Even for the shorter Slams, the FP cost is almost irrelevant - it'll knock itself out long before it fatigues itself too much.

Or is there an unspoken genre convention that Slams only do damage to the target in DF that I'm unaware of?
There isn't. But I think one of us is doing slams wrong.

How I've been doing them is I do damage to you based on our net velocity x my HP, and you do damage to me based on our net velocity x your HP. So If a big turtle jumps into you for 7d+7 at a velocity of 8, and you've got 22 HP (say you're a barbarian with base HP), you do (22 x 8)/100 = 1.76 rounds to 2d. So you take 7d+7 and the turtle takes 2d.

AFAIK that's what "you and your foe each inflict dice of crushing damage on the other equal to (HP x velocity)/100" means. You each do that, not you do your damage to yourself and your target.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Those turtles are pretty weird in general but their slam damage is clearly worked out incorrectly.
No, there are just hidden assumptions in their slam. Remember that beasts don't get full character sheets. You don't even get to see all of their traits -- just the important ones. And anything bundled into the attack lines or description isn't necessarily repeated on the Traits line.

So the turtle has Super Jump, which works normally (modified using the simpler DF2 rules, of course), but when it slams it uses the damage stated there. Its slams involve it jumping more quickly.

What specific traits allow that? <shrug> Don't know, don't care. It's not a character. It's a monster. Matt is well within his right to simply assign certain abilities, damage, etc., to any monster he creates, without justifying it via specific traits. I did the same thing with many of the monsters in MH3, for example.

GURPS Rule #17: Just because you can stat out everything, doesn't mean you have to stat out everything.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #34
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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There isn't. But I think one of us is doing slams wrong.

How I've been doing them is I do damage to you based on our net velocity x my HP, and you do damage to me based on our net velocity x your HP. So If a big turtle jumps into you for 7d+7 at a velocity of 8, and you've got 22 HP (say you're a barbarian with base HP), you do (22 x 8)/100 = 1.76 rounds to 2d. So you take 7d+7 and the turtle takes 2d.

AFAIK that's what "you and your foe each inflict dice of crushing damage on the other equal to (HP x velocity)/100" means. You each do that, not you do your damage to yourself and your target.
You're right, it's me that forgot about it being the target's HP that matters to how much damage the turtle takes. It's likely to be just fine squishing adventurers with HP down around 10, but likely to take some from barbarians up in the low 20s. In your example, though, the 7d+7 is at a velocity of 16, not 8, so it looks like the barbarian will do 3 or 4d or so, not 2d.

Just need to make sure they don't jump at anybody standing near a stone wall, who dodge and cause the turtles to splat against the wall.... since that would be double damage.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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No, there are just hidden assumptions in their slam. Remember that beasts don't get full character sheets. You don't even get to see all of their traits -- just the important ones. And anything bundled into the attack lines or description isn't necessarily repeated on the Traits line.

So the turtle has Super Jump, which works normally (modified using the simpler DF2 rules, of course), but when it slams it uses the damage stated there. Its slams involve it jumping more quickly.

What specific traits allow that? <shrug> Don't know, don't care. It's not a character. It's a monster. Matt is well within his right to simply assign certain abilities, damage, etc., to any monster he creates, without justifying it via specific traits. I did the same thing with many of the monsters in MH3, for example.

GURPS Rule #17: Just because you can stat out everything, doesn't mean you have to stat out everything.
Wait, so if they jump but not in order to slam, but just to chase you or escape from you, they jump slower? Or do they always jump their full distance in a turn?
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:56 PM   #36
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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In your example, though, the 7d+7 is at a velocity of 16, not 8, so it looks like the barbarian will do 3 or 4d or so, not 2d.
Missed that in my haste. Yeah. So it's 7d+7 vs. [(16 x 22)/100]=3.52 or 4d of damage. Turtle inflicts 14-49 damage, average 31.5, and takes 4-24 damage, average 14, against DR 12. Not a bad deal for the turtle, and since that's 2x the damage of the barbarian he'll blow right over him! Heh.

It's much worse for smaller folks, who probably won't hurt the turtle in the process. Now I'm really sorry my players didn't wander into those guys during the playtest run . . .
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Just searched DF 1 and DF 2, and there's no mention in either of jumping with Super Jump working differently than Basic says, so I don't know how anybody could possibly have known about this being the genre convention Kromm mentions, but oh well.
It had nothing to do with the rules in DF, I just saw that line and asked about it. His response boiled down to "Making them take too long to jump didn't look as cool so we glossed over that detail and called it a genre convention for playability"
Which I am cool with and is something that makes sense for the book.
A footnote would have been nice but I don't expect them every time.

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Long explanations are among the things that people who "just" want to do flat-out dungeon-crawl games, say, find exasperating about full-on GURPS, which is why we didn't bother with such explanations.
Works for me, though since it was a change from basic a footnote might have been nice. Though I am sure word count was tight. have not bought it yet but intend to based on the preview draft as it looks a LOT more useful then I expected it would be.

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It could also work by assigning the monster a bunch of move (limited to enhance it's jumping velocity only) or an enhancement on its super jump (to improve jumping velocity and therefore reduce hang time). Which might be omitted from the writeup, like other things tend to be, simply because it's a bunch of fiddly details and you really only need the damage.

Or you could just assign it damage. There isn't actually a RULE in GURPS that forbids just assigning damage to a monster. :)
I like the cosmic "Instant acceleration" idea I mentioned above. And it matches the one for enhanced move (Flight) so has precedent.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Presumably you are supposed to just use the stat-block as is, without trying to dissect it in the first place.
Clearly this is the intent.
However it is GURPS so I think it was a reasonable expectation that many of us were going to dissect it and adapt various bits of that or any work for other uses and games. So a note4 in the Designers notes, if we have them would solve the mystery. Or a note in the write up.
Since using the stat block I would be pulling out the relevant sections of basic to determine how fast they moved (even if not checking the damage math) it would have been a fair addition.
Something like "jumps full distance in 1 turn using AoA (Strong)" would have been short and told a GM all he needed to know. In this case how fast they are so he doesn't have to look it up (I guess it assumed most would think jump was 1 turn so wouldn't bother) and that their using AoA so no active defenses.
However hindsight is 20/20 and apparently it never came up in play test so assuming no one would ask or try to figure it out was a reasonable assumption. Another thing is the damage from doing a slam was apparently not worried about in play test, though why I have no idea.
Critter starts the fight off doing major damage to itself (or not depending on the ruling) would be a big deal in a fight.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:58 PM   #38
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Wait, so if they jump but not in order to slam, but just to chase you or escape from you, they jump slower? Or do they always jump their full distance in a turn?
I'd go with the latter, because it's simpler, and DF is most fun when it's fast, IME. If you start splitting hairs between "combat jump speed" and "non-combat jump speed" you are adding complexity for no utility.
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:03 PM   #39
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
I'd go with the latter, because it's simpler, and DF is most fun when it's fast, IME. If you start splitting hairs between "combat jump speed" and "non-combat jump speed" you are adding complexity for no utility.
I would do that also. They just jump whats listed and your done.
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Have I Got Jumping Velocity Right?

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There isn't. But I think one of us is doing slams wrong.

How I've been doing them is I do damage to you based on our net velocity x my HP, and you do damage to me based on our net velocity x your HP.
AFAIK that's what "you and your foe each inflict dice of crushing damage on the other equal to (HP x velocity)/100" means. You each do that, not you do your damage to yourself and your target.
Never read it that way and always just used the max HP in the calculation.
Another way to read it would be total HP but I decided no on that one.
I like you way better and wish it was written up in the FAQ or errata somewhere. Since RPK and Kromm are looking at this thread, could we have a ruling how its supposed to be? Pretty please?
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