Altering the Initiative Order

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I wonder if requiring a Do Nothing maneouvre in between would solve the problems?

Not by itself, However it possible for a lull to happen where everyone slip out of combat time and back into native time for the encounter then later slip back into combat time.

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I have Basic Speed 6.00, and my friends and foes have 5.75, 5.50, 5.25, and 5.00. The GM informs us it's time to go into combat rounds.

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose to act last, as if I had a speed of only 4.75.
GM: Fine. [GM handles maneuvers for the other player's turns.]
GM: Time for 4.75's to declare maneuvers. 6.00 acting as 4.75, what do you do?
6.00: I choose to Move and Attack. [The player moves a full 6 yards and attacks.]
GM: Okay, back to the top of the order. 6.00 is first.
6.00: I Attack the same guy I just attacked.
GM: Fine.

Questions:

Was Move and Attack a legal choice for 6.00? I say yes. While not a legal option for the Wait maneuver, 6.00 technically didn't take a Wait maneuver. 6.00 simply chose not to act at their full Basic Speed.

Was it okay for 6.00 to move 6 yards, even though he chose to act at as if he was a 4.75 player. I say yes.

Was it okay for him to act at 6.00 on the next round. I say no. Once your place in the combat turn sequence is set, you can't advance it.

However, it could have gone this way:

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose Wait. After 5.00's turn (the trigger) I will Attack a foe that is in range (the action).
GM: Fine. [GM handles maneuvers for the other player's turns.]
GM: Okay, that's 5.00's turn. 6.00, your Wait is now triggered. There are two foes in range. Pick one and Attack. [6.00 does so.]
GM: Okay, back to the top of the order. 6.00, what do you do?
6.00: I Attack the same guy I just attacked.
GM: Fine.

So, when used in this fashion, a high Basic Speed can get two full Attack maneuvers in against a lower Basic Speed foe without the lower Basic Speed foe getting a maneuver in.

If mr. 6 were the 1st and changed to last, if just used a do nothing maneuver, if won't act twice. I don't see any problem in delaying.

See, there is no such a thing as a back to the top of the order. No universal turn, only individual turns.

So the original sequence would be Adam, Beth, Carl, Dani, Eric.

Ok, Adam chooses to act after Dani, delaying his turn, so he will be doing nothing until then. After that, if will need to wait his turn again (after Dani) to have the opportunity to act again. So, if delays again, acting after Eric, returning to original sequence.

So: a b c d e * b c d 'a' e b c d * e 'a' b c d e.

* = original sequence of Adam without delay.

'a' = new sequence of Adam after delay.

It will only be a problem if many people starts using that at the same time. But, as I see it, it is a complexity problem, not a balancing problem.

See, he is not acting slower, he is delaying the action. So, it is not reversible, he can't anticipate the next action, he can only delay again, in his turn.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

he can't anticipate the next action, he can only delay again, in his turn.

That's the key point, it takes a second for your turn to come up again, so the only way to go back to the top of the list is falling to last. Last, is effectively first, depending on when you start counting.

If the sequence is...

a > b > c > a > b > c ...

You can slow down a bit and it becomes

b > a > c > b > a > c ...

Slow down a bit more and the sequence is re-established...

b > c > a > b > c > a ....

So if you wait enough you've effectively taken a Do Nothing maneuver.

[Hohenstadt]

This may be a stupid question (new to GURPS) but can't the Knight just state he goes after the Wizard without all this complicated rules stuff? Then next round, state the same? Or any PC state he goes after any PC/NPC?

This seems terribly complicated for a fun game night.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by Hohenstadt

This may be a stupid question (new to GURPS) but can't the Knight just state he goes after the Wizard without all this complicated rules stuff? Then next round, state the same? Or any PC state he goes after any PC/NPC?

Short answer: if his GM says he can, sure.

Longer answer: The knight's player wants a rules interpretation grounded in the rules as they were written that he can present to his GM as a rationale for doing so.

Really long answer: The GURPS rules are designed to work together, especially the combat rules. An alternate interpretation or change of a rule can send unexpected shock waves throughout the system. In this case, several game mechanics, including active defenses, movement, and spell durations rely on the sequence of combat turns not changing during the course of a combat scene. There are ways of doing so, chiefly the Wait maneuver, that allow some effective changing of the turn sequence. The Wait maneuver puts restrictions on what it does and how; we're exploring those consequences. At the same time, we're trying to find a way to accomplish what the knight's player would like to do without the systemic shock waves disrupting the rest of the rules. Allowing the Knight to choose to go later in the turn sequence for the entirety of the combat scene but not to change the turn order each time seems to have the fewest negative effects on the rest of the rules and the verbal support of the game's official authority: Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Hohenstadt

This may be a stupid question (new to GURPS) but can't the Knight just state he goes after the Wizard without all this complicated rules stuff?
..
This seems terribly complicated for a fun game night.

Well, the general answer is, if you don't care about it and everybody is happy... just do it and ignore the rule specifics! ;)
But at a point you may face abuse...
The simple and RAW answer is: Before combat is starting, you can state that the Knight goes after the Wizard for the whole combat time (thus effectively operating at a lower basic speed).
Indeed all the other details are complicated, but IMO you can safely ignore them until you feel the need ;-)

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by OldSam

... The simple and RAW answer is: Before combat is starting, you can state that the Knight goes after the Wizard for the whole combat time (thus effectively operating at a lower basic speed).
...

Well, so far as I can tell, the one-reset for the whole combat is not RAW. If you can choose to be one Speed slower, there is nothing to stop you from slowing down even more.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Well, so far as I can tell, the one-reset for the whole combat is not RAW.

At least Kromm said there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do it and there is also nothing in the Basic Set that would speak against it. For me that's like RAW. Of course the Basic Set also doesn't say that it is an option to operate at lower speed, but apart from Kromm's words it would be consistent and totally makes sense as you can also operate at a lower level of move for instance.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by OldSam

At least Kromm said there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do it and there is also nothing in the Basic Set that would speak against it. For me that's like RAW. Of course the Basic Set also doesn't say that it is an option to operate at lower speed, but apart from Kromm's words it would be consistent and totally makes sense as you can also operate at a lower level of move for instance.

I got something entirely different from what Kromm said. AFAICT he's saying that you can use Wait in order to go after another PC, but it still is restricted to same Maneuver set and it doesn't change sequence (just as per usual for Wait).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I got something entirely different from what Kromm said. AFAICT he's saying that you can use Wait in order to go after another PC, but it still is restricted to same Maneuver set and it doesn't change sequence (just as per usual for Wait).

He also said that you can choose to use less than your full abilities, including choosing to operate at a lower Basic Speed.