Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

(or failed a Fast-Draw roll and cut off their own leg. Putting the Ow! in Meow!)

That whole event was . . . unfortunate.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's telling that when I ran the very first DFRPG adventures at GenCon using the 15 pre-gens in the box, lightly customized, that the delvers who did the best were Argua (oh, my), Grükuk, and Sir Yvor. So many of the low-ST, high-DX types just got . . . webbed, grabbed, and eaten.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

(or failed a Fast-Draw roll and cut off their own leg. Putting the Ow! in Meow!)

Originally Posted by Kromm

That whole event was . . . unfortunate.

That was HILRIOUS. I still laugh about it. I still want my pound of flesh and by pound of flesh I mean a magic item made from the bones of that character's leg to appear somewhere in DFRPG canon. XD

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That doesn't work with the GURPS definition of ST, though, which is absolute rather than relative to body size.

Well, there's the problem that GURPS doesn't have a size stat, but most people don't realize 'ST 9/DX 15' is someone who weighs on the order of 50 pounds.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, there's the problem that GURPS doesn't have a size stat, but most people don't realize 'ST 9/DX 15' is someone who weighs on the order of 50 pounds.

It really isn't. Even the quick and dirty mass-to-ST equation (which tends to underestimate the size of humans) would put ST 9 at about 90 lb. Why would DX even have an impact on someone's weight?

[Kromm]

I think "DX is really ST"-type arguments would hold more water if DX was just speed. But DX isn't just speed. It's very specifically also flexibility, balance, fine motor skills, and lots of other things that are more about joints, the inner ear, nerves, and the brain than anything to do with muscles or how swiftly you move. In fact, outside of combat and vehicle skills, there isn't even much of a speed aspect to what DX covers . . .

I do think that "DX is really ST" makes sense for active defenses, though. The essence of avoiding harm isn't "being really precise" but "jerking large chunks of your ponderous self around forcefully enough that they avoid or intercept an attack vector over which you have zero control."

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

It really isn't. Even the quick and dirty mass-to-ST equation (which tends to underestimate the size of humans) would put ST 9 at about 90 lb. Why would DX even have an impact on someone's weight?

Because you need a high strength to weight ratio to be dextrous. Thus, ST^3/8 formula (91 lb) gets reduced by a pretty substantial factor.

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think "DX is really ST"-type arguments would hold more water if DX was just speed.

DX is not ST, but DX is limited by ST.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by OddGamer

Okay... so... I'm checking to see if I have this right. I wrote myself a little combat simulator to check various fights. It doesn't take into account everything, of course, but it does do most of the major rules (I think). And with this I've considered two fighters of 58 points each (excluding what else they spent points on). The first fighter is a wealthy knight-type with muscles, health, and armor, armed with a nice spear. The second is a poor guy with no armor and also a spear.

Wealthy Dude: 58
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 12, Wealth: Comfortable, Broadsword-12
--Equipment: Scale armor (DR 4 everywhere), Broadsword (1d+3 cutting), Large Shield
==Dodge: 8, Parry: 12

Poor Peasant: 57
ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10, Wealth: Poor, Close Combat (Spear)-4, Spear-27
--Equipment: Spear (1d+1 Impaling, using 2 hands)
==Dodge: 8, Parry: 16

When I run this... the guy with who sunk all those same points into spear ability clobbers several sorts of heck out of the guy who spread it out into strength and so on, winning 80% of the time whether in a 1 on 1 situation or a 2 on 2 situation. Effectively, it looks like, for combat at least, there's literally no point in spending any points on anything other than skill with an impaling weapon. Why bother? It's the cheapest, and most effective increase to your combat potential. At least until you're at a skill level where you can stab someone in the eye intentionally with a 16 or less, even in close combat (skill 30 with the Close Combat technique), then pump points into anything else (damage, HT, etc.).

Is this correct, or am I missing something?

Spear guy is not "a poor guy with a spear" he's a legendary spear fighter the likes of which have only been seen a handful of times in history, the rival of Miyomoto Musashi and other great masters (as his skill is 2 higher than what basic set lists as the upper range of a masterful level [20-25 skill].) If you have that kind of level you should have many other skills related to spear at at least ordinary if not expert levels (armory, spear art, staff, tactics, philosophy, soldier, you name it), and unless he's old and decrepit (in which case he couldn't realistically maintain that skill level but maybe could if this was a very cinematic game) he should have very fit and great ST, DX, and HT scores to be at all believable. No one accomplishes a 27 skill with a muscled powered combat weapon without also being in peak physical condition... even old decrepit martial arts masters in cinema are functionally in good shape.

Meanwhile sword guy isn't bad, but he's no expert either. Mostly relies on his ability to afford armor to win fights, because his skill level is in the upper end of "ordinary" but not really close to being an expert (ordinary is 9-11 for a hobby, 12-13 for something used in professional life, expert is 14-19). He's had lessons for a while or maybe been in a few battles in which he sat on a horse, wearing armor, and killed a bunch of peasants who didn't have the spear skill, but he's never faced a really skilled opponent (or he has but got schooled.)

GURPS shouldn't be treated as an open book for you to buy whatever you want. GM's should take a very active hand in character creation to make sure characters make sense and are appropriate for the game. GURPS can do anything, but that doesn't mean anything is appropriate for the game or realistic or even believably cinematic. You can have a 4 DX and a 30 broadsword skill and 30 acrobatics if you want, along with Klutz but perfect Balance. Does it make sense? Not really?

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Because you need a high strength to weight ratio to be dextrous. Thus, ST^3/8 formula (91 lb) gets reduced by a pretty substantial factor.

Not trying to be rude, but I just don't understand how that makes any sense. By that logic, no human can ever have any remotely good DX, because the weight required would either be physically impossible or at least underweight to a deadly degree. 90 lb is already lower than possible on the Build Table for someone ST 9 and Average build. Even the Skinny column only goes down to 70 lb.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Because you need a high strength to weight ratio to be dextrous. Thus, ST^3/8 formula (91 lb) gets reduced by a pretty substantial factor.

DX is not ST, but DX is limited by ST.

Hmmm, Kromm has already posted about DX not being limited to physicality. I'm 52, I grew up being very sporty and athletic, these days less so. I still have demonstrably faster reflexes than my 20 year old nephew, who is athletic and very fit. His ST to weight ratio is MUCH better than mine, but I am still much faster to react and move physically. What he is able to do is sustain dextrous movement and is at less risk of injury when we start talking about moving whole body mass. But, really, it's too simplistic (and I think wrong) to equate ST to mass as a defining factor in DX. It's a contributor, but there is much more to reaction and movement, including experience, muscle type, cognitive processing, training, and so on.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by OddGamer

Okay... so... I'm checking to see if I have this right

... Snip example ...

Is this correct, or am I missing something?

Other folks have commented on many relevant aspects, but let me clarify one more thing that has been stated but not explicitly:

GURPS CP are not an accurate measure of character power (whatever that is)

They are kinda balanced for balancing the spotlight time of wandering violent squad-based troubleshooters ... but it's a rough balance. Very rough. Don't count on it to force your players to make appropriate PCs all on its own. Making sure that the PCs are good fits for the game is part of the GM's job.