Super Jump, Drop Kick and Flight (Requires Surface)

[CarrionPeacock]

Why Super Jump is so expensive compared to Flight (Requires Surface)?
According to the relevant thread, it seems generally agreed that its performance at lower levels (yet still expensive) is bad and that it's outshined by Flight. Is there something we are missing?
I've been suggested that it's expensive because it increased slam damage exponentially but according to PK you still takes the same amount of damage as your foe so it's not really an advantage at all. Even if unlimited amount of DR (Feet only; collision crush damage only; tough skin) were allowed, it would still cost 1 point/level and would make the total cost much higher (6 points required per dice of slam damage) and, honestly, would be pretty inelegant.

[Refplace]

Besides the damage you also have a higher ACC factor than with Enhanced Move (Air) which is really what you should compare it to rather than Flight.

[CarrionPeacock]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Besides the damage you also have a higher ACC factor than with Enhanced Move (Air) which is really what you should compare it to rather than Flight.

ACC, as in accuracy? Could you elaborate, please?
Also why compare with Enhanced Move (Air)? I'm comparing with Flight (Requires Surface) because both allows the character to do great leaps like Hulk or Crysis' Nanosuit. Enhanced Move (Air) requires Flight and improves the speed, it doesn't interact with jump at all.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

ACC, as in accuracy? Could you elaborate, please?
Also why compare with Enhanced Move (Air)? I'm comparing with Flight (Requires Surface) because both allows the character to do great leaps like Hulk or Crysis' Nanosuit. Enhanced Move (Air) requires Flight and improves the speed, it doesn't interact with jump at all.

Sorry ACC for acceleration.
Super Jump is a leveled advantage that lets you jump farther and you can already jump.
Flight lets you do something you cant do. Even with the Requires a Surface limitation, such as run across tree tops or water.
Enhanced Move increases your top speed but not your acceleration so it takes longer to get to that top speed. But it doubles that top speed just as Super Jump doubles you jump distance.

So Super Jump is more like Enhanced Move than it is Flight.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock

Why Super Jump is so expensive compared to Flight (Requires Surface)?
According to the relevant thread, it seems generally agreed that its performance at lower levels (yet still expensive) is bad and that it's outshined by Flight. Is there something we are missing?
I've been suggested that it's expensive because it increased slam damage exponentially but according to PK you still takes the same amount of damage as your foe so it's not really an advantage at all. Even if unlimited amount of DR (Feet only; collision crush damage only; tough skin) were allowed, it would still cost 1 point/level and would make the total cost much higher (6 points required per dice of slam damage) and, honestly, would be pretty inelegant.

Slams are reckless full-body tackles into somebody and that gotta hurt you too regardless of your jumping advantages. Now, as far as I know, Drop Kick is an entirely different beast, you're going feet first in a somewhat controlled/trained manner so you don't take damage from it, just like you don't take damage from punching or kicking someone. The lack of any mention to equivalent damage in the write-up corroborates this idea. Besides, if you look at this post Kromm says you can deal collision damage to someone by falling on them and that acrobatics roll can reduce the damage you take. If a skill can mitigate the damage, I can't see why an advantage you paid good point that explicitly says it reduces fall damage won't do the same. If doing it vertically works like that, why would it be different doing it horizontally (going feet first, of course)?
You can also take advantage of Super Jump by doing an Move and Attack maneuver with thrusting weapon (see Martial Arts page 107).

Originally Posted by Refplace

Sorry ACC for acceleration.
Super Jump is a leveled advantage that lets you jump farther and you can already jump.
Flight lets you do something you cant do. Even with the Requires a Surface limitation, such as run across tree tops or water.
Enhanced Move increases your top speed but not your acceleration so it takes longer to get to that top speed. But it doubles that top speed just as Super Jump doubles you jump distance.

So Super Jump is more like Enhanced Move than it is Flight.

You know more about GURPS than me but I'll have to disagree with you here.
Flight with Requires Surface allows you to fly for 5 seconds after breaking contact with a surface, to make it more like a jump would require Cannot Hover limitation too but doing so results in a continuous movement through the air after you push yourself up, that's pretty much Super Jump for me.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

If a skill can mitigate the damage, I can't see why an advantage you paid good point that explicitly says it reduces fall damage won't do the same. If doing it vertically works like that, why would it be different doing it horizontally (going feet first, of course)?
You can also take advantage of Super Jump by doing an Move and Attack maneuver with thrusting weapon (see Martial Arts page 107).

On that see the Bouncing enhancement in GURPS Powers. So I would let you reduce the damage as for a fall with a skill roll I would require the enhancement for more than 5 yards,

Originally Posted by Sorenant

You know more about GURPS than me but I'll have to disagree with you here.
Flight with Requires Surface allows you to fly for 5 seconds after breaking contact with a surface, to make it more like a jump would require Cannot Hover limitation too but doing so results in a continuous movement through the air after you push yourself up, that's pretty much Super Jump for me.

From the text of the limitation....
After that, you must push off again by
moving close enough to a rigid surface
(wall, bamboo cane, etc.) – or any sur-
face, even water, in a cinematic game
– to touch it with part of your body.

Thanks for the compliment but I fail to remember stuff correctly sometimes and often take the shortcut of not looking up a reference if I think I know it.
Sometimes that bites me, but its too much like work to double check everything I post.
Anyhow my main thoughts in response is how it balances against Enhanced Move not Flight.
Yes Requires Surface is a mere -20% making Flight much more expensive than basic Super Jump but it does so much more.
5 seconds air time would take several levels of Super Jump for most beings, Super Jump doesn't let you control direction after you took off (without other modifiers) and requires a solid and strong surface.
That Flight limitation lets you control your direction and run along weird things so they behave rather differently.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Refplace

On that see the Bouncing enhancement in GURPS Powers. So I would let you reduce the damage as for a fall with a skill roll I would require the enhancement for more than 5 yards,

Unmodified Super Jump already makes any fall less than or equal to maximum high jump height deal no damage. As far as I understand, Bouncing is for even higher heights. Besides, the bouncing effect is also excessive and 15 points per level is ridiculous, maybe it's suitable for 500 points supers game but for a 250 points fantasy game where you just want a better, advantage-based Flying Leap? Nah.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Unmodified Super Jump already makes any fall less than or equal to maximum high jump height deal no damage. As far as I understand, Bouncing is for even higher heights. Besides, the bouncing effect is also excessive and 15 points per level is ridiculous, maybe it's suitable for 500 points supers game but for a 250 points fantasy game where you just want a better, advantage-based Flying Leap? Nah.

Yes but max high jump height is a lot less than maximum distance. Also it does not specify it also works for collisions which the person I was referencing was making a case for.
I agree with him for it in a limited case but probably just up to the 5 yards.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yes but max high jump height is a lot less than maximum distance. Also it does not specify it also works for collisions which the person I was referencing was making a case for.
I agree with him for it in a limited case but probably just up to the 5 yards.

I admit knowing nothing about biomechanics and my knowledge about projectile physics is very rusted but wouldn't the initial energy/speed of the motion, be it vertical or horizontal, be the same?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

I admit knowing nothing about biomechanics and my knowledge about projectile physics is very rusted but wouldn't the initial energy/speed of the motion, be it vertical or horizontal, be the same?

Yes but when falling the process of reducing damage is different than trying to slam into an object. And you have a limit to which you can safely absorb. Bouncing helps by increasing that significantly.
RAW doesnt really specify collisions just falls so its up to each GM to interpert, baring a clarification from the author or line editors. However the Bouncing modifier specifically applies collisions to the mix.