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Old 05-08-2019, 04:59 AM   #1
Gumby Bush
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Default Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

Why do Holy power modifiers consist in Pact but not something like Sanctity-sensitive?

Without sanctity-sensitive, do holy abilities (such as the DF Cleric's) falter in low- or no-sanctity areas? If one wants them to, should one add it?

If they do not already respond to sanctity levels, what is the reasoning behind that?
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:13 AM   #2
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

Are you asking specifically about DF? (Because sanctity and power modifiers are usually highly setting-dependent.)

If you want low- and no-sanctity areas in your game, then you could use a pretty straightforward adaptation of the low- and no-mana area penalties for standard magic. If your holy powers are more Advantage-based (Powers style), then a skill penalty won't mean much unless you also require Skills For Everyone. You could file it under the Environmental Limitation, the required environment in this case being Sanctity level.

You might also want to keep Pact. It's a pretty classic (un)holy power kind of restriction. (More or less invented for that purpose, I suspect.)
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:52 AM   #3
Gumby Bush
 
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

DF, Divine Favor, whatever: mostly asking about the reasoning for and effect of leaving it off official versions so I can better think through adding it to my own.

There will be varying sanctity levels, and I'd like the abilities to weaken (or, I suppose, strengthen?) a la the druid's nature abilities corresponding to the strength of the sanctity.

I'll be using divine magic, which is, by default, sensitive to both the Pact and sanctity, but the question is about the powers that may go along with them, e.g., Healing (Holy -??%) or Terror (Unholy -??%).
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:36 AM   #4
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post
Why do Holy power modifiers consist in Pact but not something like Sanctity-sensitive?

Without sanctity-sensitive, do holy abilities (such as the DF Cleric's) falter in low- or no-sanctity areas? If one wants them to, should one add it?

If they do not already respond to sanctity levels, what is the reasoning behind that?
The reason why clerical advantages aren't sanctity-based is because the assumption is that the god they get their power from is real and actually giving them power. Clerical "spells" don't draw on the god. They drawn on the worshippers faith in the god. A cleric whose advantages as well as spells were sanctity based could in theory be a cleric of a religion that follows a "false" (nonexistent) god.

And in gamist terms, an adventuring cleric's job is to go into places that are hostile to their gods and change that. Having powers that stop working every time they're most needed doesn't make for good gaming.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

The real reason is that GURPS Thaumatology (where Sanctity was introduced into the 4e ruleset) was published after GURPS Powers (which introduced the Divine PM that later books like Divine Favor were built off of), and SJGames decided against constantly tweaking already-published material.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:53 PM   #6
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

<shrug> They don't have any problem tweaking advantage based magic in other ways. And even if that was the reason it was still the right decision because having clerics be totally powerless in bad places would mean that characters would be saying "That's OK, Father Useless, we know you can't help, so you just stay home while we challenge the powers of Hell."
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

And yet, Divine Favor uses the Divine PM from Powers but applies modifiers to the Petition and Reaction Rolls based on Sanctity. See Divine Favor p.5 for specifics.

My point is that they incorporated the Sanctity rules into Divine Favor without changing the PM: it's still worth -10%, and it still doesn't mention the power shutting off in No Sanctity areas; but the power still shuts off in No Sanctity areas despite that.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
The real reason is that GURPS Thaumatology (where Sanctity was introduced into the 4e ruleset) was published after GURPS Powers (which introduced the Divine PM that later books like Divine Favor were built off of), and SJGames decided against constantly tweaking already-published material.
Your history isn't accurate. I was the one who invented sanctity, and I did so in GURPS Fantasy, which was the first 4/e supplement.
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

A recent conversation leaned towards the explanation being that Divine energies could reach anywhere so Sanctity is not representative of applicable power. It is more a representation of interest level though. So high sanctity places like temples are important, low level areas like opposed temples are of lesser interest or direct interaction. The Divine Favor model I think models that.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:54 PM   #10
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Holy Power Modifier: Sanctity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The reason why clerical advantages aren't sanctity-based is because the assumption is that the god they get their power from is real and actually giving them power. Clerical "spells" don't draw on the god. They drawn on the worshippers faith in the god. A cleric whose advantages as well as spells were sanctity based could in theory be a cleric of a religion that follows a "false" (nonexistent) god.

And in gamist terms, an adventuring cleric's job is to go into places that are hostile to their gods and change that. Having powers that stop working every time they're most needed doesn't make for good gaming.
Doesn't that make the worshipers the god and not the god? Kind of like Robespierre really being "the general will"?
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