Fourth Age of Middle Earth gaming

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

So... trade networks in the Fourth Age?

We know of two trade routes.

a) the Elves get wine from Dorwinion. Seems unlikely that you could grow grapes that far North, but what do I know?

b) the Hobbits ship pipeweed to Isengard. But that has stopped, robbing Middle-earth of 50% of its trade.

Can you think of something else?

With Sauron defeated, it seems plasuible that trade between the North and West regions and the South and East will increase, with more roads or trails open.

Another question:

Who were the 'slaves of Mordor' that were given land in land around the lakes of Nurnen? I'm guessing that these folk were enslaved Easterlings or Southrons. But what if they were orcs, or half-orcs/goblin-men of some kind? A half-orc nation could be cool. Was Saruman the only one who bred Orcs with Men?

[Anders]

Yeah, but what do the Gondorians trade? I think they're the breadbasket of the region, but that's just my feeling.

The Dwarves must have wood for their mines at Erebor and in the Iron Hills. We know that Erebor is a motherlode of all kinds of nice stuff, and the Iron Hills probably produce, well, iron. But where do they get their wood? They could get it from the Mirkwood, but the place is full of Elves, so not. Or they could get it from Rhûn, which I suspect.

There could be a trade triangle there: Rhûn ship woods to Iron Hills and Erebor who ship iron and craft items to Dorwinrim who ship wine to Rhûn.

And a second trade triangle: Dorwinrim ships wine to Thranduil's palace who ship something I don't know what (furs?) to Esgaroth and Erebor who ship iron and craft items to Dorwinrim.

The Dwarves in Ered Luin produce iron and trinkets, I guess for Tharbad or maybe even Pelargir. Rohirrim sell horses (duh!) but probably also cattle, sheep, goat and associated products.

[whswhs]

Thorin and Company had been living in the Ered Luin, west of the Shire, before they went on the quest. Gandalf makes a sarcastic comment to them about going back to coal mining. This suggests that there are coal mines somewhere in that region.

Bill Stoddard

[Anders]

I thought I remembered something like that. Hmm... So they export it to? Or is it just for home consumption?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I've looked over my copy of Burning Wheel.
It might be a great fit for a Middle Earth game. Some cat on RPG.NET has done up Hobbits for the system.

Burning Wheel is a very close fit to LotR in the flavor of the races. But I tried writing up characters in it, and I couldn't figure out how to get a character who was even minimally competent. And the life path mechanic actually made character creation take even longer than writing up a GURPS character, though that might have been partly unfamiliarity. At the very least, I would recommend a few design exercises before adopting it—perhaps writing up the Fellowship would be a good test.

Bill Stoddard

[xerxes]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

So... trade networks in the Fourth Age?

We know of two trade routes.

a) the Elves get wine from Dorwinion. Seems unlikely that you could grow grapes that far North, but what do I know?

b) the Hobbits ship pipeweed to Isengard. But that has stopped, robbing Middle-earth of 50% of its trade.

Can you think of something else?

If I'm not mistaken, Dorwinion is a bit more southerly than Thranduil's halls. Maybe it is like Northern California which apparently gets cold but they grow grapes.

Isn't there something in the Hobbit about dwarves of Erebor making toys and gadgets that were shipped out to other lands?

What's the name of the old elf trail that goes through the Shire and goes to the Grey Havens? Perhaps the Vale of Anduin will trade with Bree and other parts of Eriador via that road. Of course, that brings up the tolls charged by the Beornings.

Will the Greenway be trod into a Brownway as trade between Gondor and Arnor resumes or will they simply trade by ship?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

So they export [coal] to? Or is it just for home consumption?

I bet they export it to the Shire. Bilbo wasn't astounded by the concept of dwarves when they turned up, which suggests they were around, or at least heard of. Bilbo's Shire is a bit more of a "children's fairy-story land" than Frodo's.

Mind you, carrying enough coal to be worthwhile any distance by pack-horse or cart is hard work. A dwarven settlement I run in a D&D campaign bit the bullet and took up canals when they found that the coal was thirty miles one way and the iron ore thirty miles the other.

[Anders]

The map I have places it at the same latitude as Lorien. Aboutwise. But that's not Tolkien's map.

They ship coal and trinkets to the Shire and then get grain and pipeweed in return. Sounds nice. Maybe ship it by sea to Minhiriath and then upriver?

[Irish Wolf]

Originally Posted by xerxes

If I'm not mistaken, Dorwinion is a bit more southerly than Thranduil's halls. Maybe it is like Northern California which apparently gets cold but they grow grapes.

Washington state is pretty far north, but we have a thriving wine industry here. Grapes don't only grow in warm climates; some varieties do well in semi-temperate zones, as well.

And Shire pipe-weed doesn't just ship to Isengard; it seemed to be popular with the dwarves of the Iron Mountains region, and (IIRC - it's been a few years) the Rohirrim seemed familiar with the Southfarthing weed as well, although they didn't know the semi-legendary Holbytlan grew it. It wouldn't be beyond belief, IMO, that it's a luxury item for wealthy people as far away as Gondor and even parts of Mordor, at least in the Fourth Age (unlikely, I think, that there was much trade with Mordor while Sauron was actually in residence there, as he never struck me much as the bargaining type).

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

So... trade networks in the Fourth Age?

We know of two trade routes.

a) the Elves get wine from Dorwinion. Seems unlikely that you could grow grapes that far North, but what do I know?

There is a notable wine industry in the Rhine valley, whereas Dorwinion is 200 miles or so more southerly than the Shire. If we guess that the Shire is supposed to have the latitude and climate of Buckinghamshire then Dorwinion is on a latitude with Paris and the Champagne. It's no Bordeaux or Burgundy, but wine grapes are possible.

b) the Hobbits ship pipeweed to Isengard. But that has stopped, robbing Middle-earth of 50% of its trade.

They also ship it to the Blue Mountains, where smoking is also a Dwarvish custom, and perhaps even to the Lonely Mountain (Gimli smoked).

Can you think of something else?

There has to be some sort of traffic to keep the Forest Road, the Great East-West Road and the North Road to Bree open and their bridges in repair, also the road that crossed the Brandywine at Sarn Ford. Though with the bridge out at Tharbad and the crossing difficult I'm a little perplexed as to where that on the North Road is going.

Mithlond, Pelagir, and Umbar are ports. I doubt they are purely fishing ports.