Limited Path/Book Magery

dataweaver · 07-14-2009, 07:26 AM

I've been thinking about a new Limitation to Magery for use with Path/ Book Magic; but I'm not sure how to price it. It comes in three levels:

The magician ]must use enough ritual elements to avoid a penalty from them; failure to do so causes the ritual to fail outright.
The magician must also use enough ritual elements to offset the ritual's skill penalty. Again, failure to do so causes the ritual to fail.
The magician must use enough ritual elements to offset any penalties from the ritual parameters, on top of the requirements of the first two levels.

So: how much would you say each of these is worth?

Mgellis · 07-14-2009, 07:31 AM

In Powers, p. 116, "Requires material components" is a -10% limitation, so you might use that. I don't think you'd get multiple levels, though...in each case, a certain amount is required, so for all three it would be the same limitation.

I hope this helps.

Mark

carllarson · 07-14-2009, 07:46 AM

I'll agree that it may actually be a limitation, but is it a needed one? Do you have players that aren't going to maximize their modifiers when possible (making it not a limitation), and actually don't want the ability to cast with penalties in an emergency?

Mgellis · 07-14-2009, 08:14 AM

I'd add that I think using components of some kind is the default...you need an advantage like Ritual Adept to get away with skipping things like components. So what the OP described might just be a 0-point feature of a particular kind of Path/Book magic.

Mark

dataweaver · 07-14-2009, 08:46 AM

Not true: as written, you can skip ritual elements, if you're willing to take penalties on the roll. This limitation would say that you don't roll the ritual at a penalty; instead, the ritual fails outright. That's not a zero-point feature; that's a limitation.

carllarson does have a point in that players tend to try to maximize their bonuses. OTOH, a magician's foes will tend to try to disrupt the ritual. In particular, I'm thinking of the classic pulp trope where the hero barges into the ritual, grabs the sacrifice, and runs away with her, thus immediately and totally causing the ritual to fail. As things are written right now, all he'd manage to do would be to remove a bonus to the ritual, making it less likely to succeed.

So the idea here is to make the ritual's reliance on elements a little more rigid, thus making the ritual more fragile.

carllarson · 07-14-2009, 01:04 PM

The utter failure of a ritual due to a modifier being stolen by heroes can also be simply part of how things work. Remember the thing we aren't doing IC, but the PCs or NPCs did, was design the ritual to achieve the effect desired. When designing, a sacrifice was placed in, and removal of that sacrifice destroys the design (unless of course you get another sacrifice real fast).

OTOH, a more flexible reality may allow such changes to still work for the ritual, with modifiers being applied only at the end.

However, in play, I probably never cast a ritual without at least getting a net 12 skill, as PC or GM. As GM, this is because PCs are anomalies, and I use a scaled skill rating for cultists with RM; 10 for junior cultists, 12 for professional sorcerors, 14 for senior cultists/best professionals, and maybe 16 for immortals. Using these benchmarks, only the immortal is going to continue a ritual after the sacrifice is stolen by beefcake, unless he has alternate sacrifices available, or is willing to chance he doesn't become the sacrifice.

transmetahuman · 07-14-2009, 01:49 PM

I'd work something like that as characteristics of the specific spells, not Magery. Even if all of the rituals used by the Dark Acolytes work that way, it could just be a consequence of their Ritual Magic specialization. Maybe all of their defaults are a little bit easier, to compensate (if a PC might ever become one, and you actually need the nuts and bolts).

On the other hand, I've never liked using modifiers to Magery to adjust the way spells work - I'm more of a Magery-as-Talent kind of guy - so take the advice with as much salt as that implies.

dataweaver · 07-14-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carllarson

The utter failure of a ritual due to a modifier being stolen by heroes can also be simply part of how things work. Remember the thing we aren't doing IC, but the PCs or NPCs did, was design the ritual to achieve the effect desired. When designing, a sacrifice was placed in, and removal of that sacrifice destroys the design (unless of course you get another sacrifice real fast).

That's a very good point. And it is something that's reflected in the Path/Book rules: before you start performing the ritual, you must first prepare the ritual elements. That would be the part where the magician(s) "designed the ritual", as you put it. And the rules don't explicitly address exactly what happens when someone comes along and messes with your preparations mid-ritual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by carllarson

OTOH, a more flexible reality may allow such changes to still work for the ritual, with modifiers being applied only at the end.

Right. And it may not even be a matter of the nature of reality. In effect, the "brittle ritual" idea could be considered an optional rule; and if the GM chooses to invoke it for his setting, he might still allow individual magical schools to offer the "Rules Exemption" perk to represent a more freewheeling approach to rituals.

aesir23 · 07-15-2009, 05:33 AM

I like these a lot, it creates an atmosphere of "I have to get this just right" and makes it much more difficult to use magic in the field in emergencies. On the other hand, it also becomes Free Points to anyone with high enough skills!

I'd suggest that it's a special case of Accessibility worth around -10%.

An Alternative I'd suggest is this: instead of it being a case of Cannot Succeed, perhaps: if the roll is being cast with any penalties, all failures are treated as Critical Failures. This strongly discourages hasty unprepared spell-casting but allows the mage to take a great risk in an emergency.

carllarson · 07-15-2009, 09:21 AM

Maybe not crit fail, but on a failure something happens to the detriment of the casters. Although with some rituals, backlash is already an issue, and any failure can provide that.

A crit success - success - Crit fail chain seems out of sync to me. Of course, making the results of a failure more detrimental isn't necessarily a crit fail situation, and then a crit fail can be even more cataclysmic.

07-14-2009, 07:26 AM	#1
dataweaver Join Date: Aug 2004	Limited Path/Book Magery I've been thinking about a new Limitation to Magery for use with Path/ Book Magic; but I'm not sure how to price it. It comes in three levels: The magician ]must use enough ritual elements to avoid a penalty from them; failure to do so causes the ritual to fail outright. The magician must also use enough ritual elements to offset the ritual's skill penalty. Again, failure to do so causes the ritual to fail. The magician must use enough ritual elements to offset any penalties from the ritual parameters, on top of the requirements of the first two levels. So: how much would you say each of these is worth?

07-14-2009, 07:31 AM	#2
Mgellis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Flushing, Michigan	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery In Powers, p. 116, "Requires material components" is a -10% limitation, so you might use that. I don't think you'd get multiple levels, though...in each case, a certain amount is required, so for all three it would be the same limitation. I hope this helps. Mark

07-14-2009, 07:46 AM	#3
carllarson Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery I'll agree that it may actually be a limitation, but is it a needed one? Do you have players that aren't going to maximize their modifiers when possible (making it not a limitation), and actually don't want the ability to cast with penalties in an emergency?

07-14-2009, 08:14 AM	#4
Mgellis Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Flushing, Michigan	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery I'd add that I think using components of some kind is the default...you need an advantage like Ritual Adept to get away with skipping things like components. So what the OP described might just be a 0-point feature of a particular kind of Path/Book magic. Mark

07-14-2009, 08:46 AM	#5
dataweaver Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery Not true: as written, you can skip ritual elements, if you're willing to take penalties on the roll. This limitation would say that you don't roll the ritual at a penalty; instead, the ritual fails outright. That's not a zero-point feature; that's a limitation. carllarson does have a point in that players tend to try to maximize their bonuses. OTOH, a magician's foes will tend to try to disrupt the ritual. In particular, I'm thinking of the classic pulp trope where the hero barges into the ritual, grabs the sacrifice, and runs away with her, thus immediately and totally causing the ritual to fail. As things are written right now, all he'd manage to do would be to remove a bonus to the ritual, making it less likely to succeed. So the idea here is to make the ritual's reliance on elements a little more rigid, thus making the ritual more fragile.

07-14-2009, 01:04 PM	#6
carllarson Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery The utter failure of a ritual due to a modifier being stolen by heroes can also be simply part of how things work. Remember the thing we aren't doing IC, but the PCs or NPCs did, was design the ritual to achieve the effect desired. When designing, a sacrifice was placed in, and removal of that sacrifice destroys the design (unless of course you get another sacrifice real fast). OTOH, a more flexible reality may allow such changes to still work for the ritual, with modifiers being applied only at the end. However, in play, I probably never cast a ritual without at least getting a net 12 skill, as PC or GM. As GM, this is because PCs are anomalies, and I use a scaled skill rating for cultists with RM; 10 for junior cultists, 12 for professional sorcerors, 14 for senior cultists/best professionals, and maybe 16 for immortals. Using these benchmarks, only the immortal is going to continue a ritual after the sacrifice is stolen by beefcake, unless he has alternate sacrifices available, or is willing to chance he doesn't become the sacrifice.

07-14-2009, 01:49 PM	#7
transmetahuman Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco, CA, USA	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery I'd work something like that as characteristics of the specific spells, not Magery. Even if all of the rituals used by the Dark Acolytes work that way, it could just be a consequence of their Ritual Magic specialization. Maybe all of their defaults are a little bit easier, to compensate (if a PC might ever become one, and you actually need the nuts and bolts). On the other hand, I've never liked using modifiers to Magery to adjust the way spells work - I'm more of a Magery-as-Talent kind of guy - so take the advice with as much salt as that implies.

07-15-2009, 05:33 AM	#9
aesir23 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vermont	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery I like these a lot, it creates an atmosphere of "I have to get this just right" and makes it much more difficult to use magic in the field in emergencies. On the other hand, it also becomes Free Points to anyone with high enough skills! I'd suggest that it's a special case of Accessibility worth around -10%. An Alternative I'd suggest is this: instead of it being a case of Cannot Succeed, perhaps: if the roll is being cast with any penalties, all failures are treated as Critical Failures. This strongly discourages hasty unprepared spell-casting but allows the mage to take a great risk in an emergency. __________________ My ongoing thread of GURPS versions of DC Comics characters.

07-15-2009, 09:21 AM	#10
carllarson Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: Limited Path/Book Magery Maybe not crit fail, but on a failure something happens to the detriment of the casters. Although with some rituals, backlash is already an issue, and any failure can provide that. A crit success - success - Crit fail chain seems out of sync to me. Of course, making the results of a failure more detrimental isn't necessarily a crit fail situation, and then a crit fail can be even more cataclysmic.