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Old 07-07-2009, 12:46 PM   #21
trooper6
 
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I just wish there were more worked examples to the Path/Book system.
And that it stayed named the Ritual Magic system with the current Ritual Magic system getting a different name.
What do you mean you wish there were more worked examples? What sort of examples? Do you mean how to actually cast the spells themselves like the two on pg127, the one on pg128, the two on pg130, the one on pg132, the one on pg135, pg136, pg137?

Or do mean other kind of examples?

Do you just want more example of people casting spells like so:

Path/Book Magician heals somebody.
A) Using Effect Shaping--
The magician has Path of Healing at 12.
Succor is Path of Healing-4
Base Skill: 8
Elements: 1) Time, the ceremony takes 30minutes. The Mage doesn't take any extra time or speed up the ceremony. No penalty.
2) Space, this is done at the mage's ritual space in their home...which is a proper area. No Penalty.
3) Material and Symbolic components.
-a) Symbolic Representation: Subject is present +4
-b) Names: Mage knows subjects True Name +4
-c) Magical Symbols: Mage made a whole bunch of symbolic images with her Symbol Drawing skill. Made the skill roll by 2, so gets +1 to the ritual
-d) No contagion
-e) Sacrifice: Mage burns incense: +1

Total Skill: 18.
The Mage Rolls a 10, succeeds on the roll by 8. This effect will be in effect for 8 days. For effect read Thaumatology pg. 150

Do you just want more of that? Or are you looking for a different kind of example. I don't think the book needed more worked examples of the above, but we could all just make up lots of example of wizards performing the spells in book if you need it.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Believe me, this point was definitely raised (and talked to death) in the playtest. Early on, it was decided that RM had to refer to the variant system from Basic Set, because that was already in print. This then lead to a massive discussion about what to call the system in Chapter 5 (it was originally going to be called "High Ceremonial Magic", but this drew negative responses right off the bat). In retrospect, the perfect ended up being the enemy of the good: every proposal had its detractors, so the author ended up going with a compromise name.

But that's history. What I'd like to see is a supplement for Thaumatology that does for Path/Book Magic what that book did for Magic. Consider how or if you would handle each of the following: Devotional Path/Book Magic; Clerical Path/Book Magic; Threshold-Limited Path/Book Magic; Spirit-Assisted Path/Book Magic; Alchemy or Herb Lore and Path/Book Magic; Enchantment and Path/Book Magic; Symbol-based Path/Book Magic; Verb/Noun-based Path/Book Magic; Realms of Power and Path/Book Magic; Magic Styles for Path/Book Magic. I'd also want a series of worked examples of Path/Book styles that follow or are embedded within the above material.

The Classic GURPS Spirits provided a decent starting place for such an approach: it mentioned that the Ritual Magic skill must be specialized by tradition, and then proceeded to list five different groups of sample Traditions, each of which had three to five sample traditions within it. For Path/Book Magic, I could see many of these being turned into Styles: one or two Hindu schools (based on Body Control instead of Ritual Magic?); an example of a Shinto-like Path/Book style as an alternative to the system found in Japan; a Taoist Path/Book style that incorporates the various Chinese ritual modifiers; an Arabian magic style that makes extensive use of Alchemy and astrological modifiers; Hermetic Path/Book Magic with the option of a demon-assisted dark sorcery variant; Priestly Path/Book Magic; Kabalistic Path/Book Magic; Shamanistic Path/Book Magic (possibly using Power Investiture (Spirits) and/or the Spirit Control power); Druidic Path/Book Magic; Teutonic (rune-based) Path/Book Magic; the Benandanti and the Wicca; a sacrifice-heavy Aztec Path/Book Magic; and some synchretic styles such as the voodoo-like magic systems, chaos magic, and so on.

Last edited by dataweaver; 07-07-2009 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Left some things out.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:43 PM   #23
transmetahuman
 
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
Believe me, this point was definitely raised (and talked to death) in the playtest. Early on, it was decided that RM had to refer to the variant system from Basic Set, because that was already in print. This then lead to a massive discussion about what to call the system in Chapter 5 (it was originally going to be called "High Ceremonial Magic", but this drew negative responses right off the bat). In retrospect, the perfect ended up being the enemy of the good: every proposal had its detractors, so the author ended up going with a compromise name.

But that's history. What I'd like to see is a supplement for Thaumatology that does for Path/Book Magic what that book did for Magic. Consider how or if you would handle each of the following: Devotional Path/Book Magic; Clerical Path/Book Magic; Threshold-Limited Path/Book Magic; Spirit-Assisted Path/Book Magic; Alchemy or Herb Lore and Path/Book Magic; Enchantment and Path/Book Magic; Symbol-based Path/Book Magic; Verb/Noun-based Path/Book Magic; Realms of Power and Path/Book Magic; Magic Styles for Path/Book Magic. I'd also want a series of worked examples of Path/Book styles that follow or are embedded within the above material.

The Classic GURPS Spirits provided a decent starting place for such an approach: it mentioned that the Ritual Magic skill must be specialized by tradition, and then proceeded to list five different groups of sample Traditions, each of which had three to five sample traditions within it. For Path/Book Magic, I could see many of these being turned into Styles: one or two Hindu schools (based on Body Control instead of Ritual Magic?); an example of a Shinto-like Path/Book style as an alternative to the system found in Japan; a Taoist Path/Book style that incorporates the various Chinese ritual modifiers; an Arabian magic style that makes extensive use of Alchemy and astrological modifiers; Hermetic Path/Book Magic with the option of a demon-assisted dark sorcery variant; Priestly Path/Book Magic; Kabalistic Path/Book Magic; Shamanistic Path/Book Magic (possibly using Power Investiture (Spirits) and/or the Spirit Control power); Druidic Path/Book Magic; Teutonic (rune-based) Path/Book Magic; the Benandanti and the Wicca; a sacrifice-heavy Aztec Path/Book Magic; and some synchretic styles such as the voodoo-like magic systems, chaos magic, and so on.
Consider this a pre-pre-order. Price unseen. :)
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Old 07-07-2009, 03:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
The Classic GURPS Spirits provided a decent starting place for such an approach: it mentioned that the Ritual Magic skill must be specialized by tradition, and then proceeded to list five different groups of sample Traditions, each of which had three to five sample traditions within it. For Path/Book Magic, I could see many of these being turned into Styles: one or two Hindu schools (based on Body Control instead of Ritual Magic?); an example of a Shinto-like Path/Book style as an alternative to the system found in Japan; a Taoist Path/Book style that incorporates the various Chinese ritual modifiers; an Arabian magic style that makes extensive use of Alchemy and astrological modifiers; Hermetic Path/Book Magic with the option of a demon-assisted dark sorcery variant; Priestly Path/Book Magic; Kabalistic Path/Book Magic; Shamanistic Path/Book Magic (possibly using Power Investiture (Spirits) and/or the Spirit Control power); Druidic Path/Book Magic; Teutonic (rune-based) Path/Book Magic; the Benandanti and the Wicca; a sacrifice-heavy Aztec Path/Book Magic; and some synchretic styles such as the voodoo-like magic systems, chaos magic, and so on.
And that's the version we use in my campaign but with flavor differences for different backgrounds. The Immortal Knight uses a form of Christian Apologetic Kabbalah and writes Aramaic inside his circles, but the son of the Green Man uses ogham, while vampires use blood. Same system with all important "dungeon dressing" as some folks call it.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Well the Path/Book examples were too limited, that is NOT a critique of Thaumatology which really couldn't spend as much space on it as I would want.
Dataweavers examples are what I would love to see but it would have to be another book.
By the way I created a variant along those lines called Hekau that used Symbols and Rituals spiced with Words of Power to be used by the high powered Mummies. The goal was to be almost as flexable as Realm Magic but a little more powerful and somewhat formulac.

My real issue was that the chapter was confusing and the rules just didnt digest easily for me. Perhaps because I was reading Voodoo in my head, perhaps just the way it was described didnt fit my particular thinking/coding. I'm not sure how I would fix it and it may have made matters worse for other readers even if I did.

I liked the system when I read it in GURPS Voodoo and i would just like some expansion on it. I can and have modified it but there is way too much potential there for me to do justice to it all.
Offtopic a bit I was most disapointed in Spirit Assisted magic and Shamanism.
I've been working on that.
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:54 AM   #26
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
(it was originally going to be called "High Ceremonial Magic", but this drew negative responses right off the bat).
Really? That seems like a perfect name. Why the objections?
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:56 AM   #27
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Well the Path/Book examples were too limited, that is NOT a critique of Thaumatology which really couldn't spend as much space on it as I would want.
Dataweavers examples are what I would love to see but it would have to be another book.

My real issue was that the chapter was confusing and the rules just didnt digest easily for me. Perhaps because I was reading Voodoo in my head, perhaps just the way it was described didnt fit my particular thinking/coding. I'm not sure how I would fix it and it may have made matters worse for other readers even if I did.

I liked the system when I read it in GURPS Voodoo and i would just like some expansion on it.
Some of your confusion might stem from the efforts to make Path/Book cover both Gurps Voodoo _and_ Castle Falkenstein i.e. "Effect Shaping" and "Energy Accumulation".

I could have happily jettisoned the Falkenstein variant but I tend to think that of all of the game mechanics of Castle Falkenstein.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:37 AM   #28
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Really? That seems like a perfect name. Why the objections?
One common objection was that it was a mouthful; another was that it was misleading, since the system in question is as suited to primitive shamanism et al as it is to "High Magick".

The real irony is that Dr. Kromm pointed out several times in the playtest that the reason why the rules variant in Basic Set got called "Ritual Magic" was in anticipation of C.J. Carrela's system eventually being reintroduced into 4e as Ritual Magic; he didn't want the confusion of two systems using the core/Path/technique learning pattern having different names.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:50 AM   #29
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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The real irony is that Dr. Kromm pointed out several times in the playtest that the reason why the rules variant in Basic Set got called "Ritual Magic" was in anticipation of C.J. Carrela's system eventually being reintroduced into 4e as Ritual Magic; he didn't want the confusion of two systems using the core/Path/technique learning pattern having different names.
Yet no one else seemed to want two such systems so different in every other aspect using the same name.

The "Ritual Magic" from the 4e Basic Set is a minor variant of the "individual spell equals separate skill" system of Gurps Magic. "Path/Book Magic" is a totally different way of doing things and not a minor variant of 4e "Ritual Magic". They need different names to distinguish one from the other.
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Old 07-08-2009, 08:18 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Utility of Ritual Magic?

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Some of your confusion might stem from the efforts to make Path/Book cover both Gurps Voodoo _and_ Castle Falkenstein i.e. "Effect Shaping" and "Energy Accumulation".

I could have happily jettisoned the Falkenstein variant but I tend to think that of all of the game mechanics of Castle Falkenstein.
I've found that the energy accumulation model has a few nice things going for it, not the least of which is that it provides a hook to make use of some of Chapter 2's "Energy Sources" material - but also, as illustrated in Age of Gold, the notion of "aspected energy" can add quite a bit of flavor to the magic system.

My own inclination would be to use the effect-shaping model for spirit-based traditions, and the energy-accumulation model for traditions that deal with ambient and/or personal energies. That said, I also remember suggesting the possibility of a "hybrid model", where the ritualist first goes through an energy accumulation process using Ritual Magic (or perhaps some other skill that more closely reflects the activities being used to accumulate the energies: Meditation, Dancing, Religious Rituals, Erotic Art, etc.), then performs a brief ritual (using a Path-based technique) to shape the accumulated energy into the desired effect.
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