Five Earths, All in a Row

[warellis]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

A lot of that will vary from culture to culture, on each world. I think most East Asian cultures have been more tolerant about that sort of thing than those burdened with the sexual mores of the Abrahamic religions, especially if discretion is exercised.

A (very) narrow (mostly regional) majority in the United States will have no problems with Mongo's sexual culture. Heck, some might apply to emigrate, only to discover that a "planetary romance" world is just a little too exciting.

Aussies, Canadians, Europeans and Japanese will have the fewest issues, of all the developed space-faring nations of Inp-Earth, while Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Christian Fundies on both Inp-Earth and Dp-Earth will pitch screaming tantrums. The pope on Clp-Earth will likely issue a writ condemning it, and the pope on Dp-Earth may do the same. I'd bet Inp-Earth's pope will likely restrict himself to sternly-worded lectures about morality, while quietly enquiring about when it might be possible for Catholic missionary priests to hitch a ride to Mongo on an ESA spacecraft.

Muslims might not care about Emperor Flash's harem, until they learn the two empresses exercise very real political power, and don't hesitate to lay the smackdown on mouthy critics.

For his part, Emperor Flash I, has to keep the peace on a world with a history of insurgency and a violently-fractional political culture. Besides that, Dale has stuck by him through a brutal (and successful) coup that brought him to power, and he may trust her a bit more than he does his other wife. There's no way he throws her under a bus to please reactionaries on other planets.

I don't think East Asian cultures on Inp-Earth are really any better about homosexuality. Take Japan for example and that whole "Schoolgirl Lesbian Romance" thing a lot of anime has. One thing you notice is that it's considered okay for the girls to engage in that when they're younger but as they grow up they're supposed to drop it and get married to a man because Schoolgirl Lesbianism is childish and a sign of immaturity. That doesn't seem very friendly to lesbianism.

Admittedly that's for Japan, which really isn't a homosexual-friendly country. I don't know enough about other East Asian cultures to comment on them.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Answered on SB.com, but it's lagging, so I can't copy it to here, and don't want to rewrite the post. You're very right about the Fa-Earth sexuality thing (in fact, a lot of the Mongoans would find the pederasty anywhere from eccentric to creepy to horrifying). I guess Inp-Earth is the only one that won't have too big a problem with Mongoan sexuality (unless I'm totally off-base about Clp-Earth cultures, as well), and even we have a lot of people who'd whine loudly about it, and quite a few who'd have even nastier reactions.

My comments about Fa-Earth were more focused on Rome and Greece admittedly. I suspect the Iroquois nation will have less a problem about Mongo due to Native American cultures being more tolerant of different sexuality. But I suspect the Old world cultures (Europe, Middle East, and Asian) will be less tolerant of lesbianism. I'm speaking of Fa-Earth.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

A lot of that will vary from culture to culture, on each world. I think most East Asian cultures have been more tolerant about that sort of thing than those burdened with the sexual mores of the Abrahamic religions, especially if discretion is exercised.

True. There's also the fact that some cultures will have a reaction of 'we don't want people doing that here, but we really don't care if you do it over there'. Not sure which cultures specifically, but cultural busybodying isn't something that everyone does, IIRC.

Originally Posted by tshiggins

A (very) narrow (mostly regional) majority in the United States will have no problems with Mongo's sexual culture. Heck, some might apply to emigrate, only to discover that a "planetary romance" world is just a little too exciting.

Oooh, yes. Even with Flash in charge instead of Ming, there are many Adventures to be had. Sometimes, the Emperor has to go sort things out personally, which means whomever is being sorted out may also have to deal with ******-off Empresses - if whomever is being sorted out lives that long, as many of them seem to be killed by their own hubris.

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Aussies, Canadians, Europeans and Japanese will have the fewest issues, of all the developed space-faring nations of Inp-Earth, while Orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Christian Fundies on both Inp-Earth and Dp-Earth will pitch screaming tantrums. The pope on Clp-Earth will likely issue a writ condemning it, and the pope on Dp-Earth may do the same. I'd bet Inp-Earth's pope will likely restrict himself to sternly-worded lectures about morality, while quietly enquiring about when it might be possible for Catholic missionary priests to hitch a ride to Mongo on an ESA spacecraft.

By the time they're able to make contact, there's probably going to be a working wormhole machine to shorten the journey, so as long as Flash permits it, not too long after contact (unless the ESA has issues with transporting them). The estimated distance between Nemesis and the Sun (according to Wikipedia, so accuracy is not assured) is 1.5 light-years, and that's the distance I'm using, unless someone can provide a reliable source that contradicts it. So, Flash won't hear the radio broadcasts from December, 1940, until May, 1942, and then there's however long it takes to try to get the wormhole machine working.

Of course, the Seleneans, Cythereans, Martians, and so forth know where Mongo is, and the Martians, at least, have a working hyperdrive to go visit them. Contact could thus be established sooner, though transportation would have to be rented. Mongo does not have hyperdrive, or if they did, it was forgotten in the Great Disaster (which could do with a better name).

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Muslims might not care about Emperor Flash's harem, until they learn the two empresses exercise very real political power, and don't hesitate to lay the smackdown on mouthy critics.

With Empress Aura, it might be either a physical or a verbal-psychological smackdown, as she legitimately earned her ranks in the Imperial Army and Imperial Police (approximate translations), during her father's reign. With Dale, it will almost certainly be verbal and psychological, despite the fact that she's stronger than Aura (Mongo has a somewhat lower gravity than Earth, and she got a lot of exercise during the years between the destruction of the wormhole machine, and Flash's ascension to the throne).

Originally Posted by tshiggins

For his part, Emperor Flash I, has to keep the peace on a world with a history of insurgency and a violently-fractional political culture. Besides that, Dale has stuck by him through a brutal (and successful) coup that brought him to power, and he may trust her a bit more than he does his other wife. There's no way he throws her under a bus to please reactionaries on other planets.

Very true - he'd be offended at the very suggestion, even if he'd later be surprised at how used to Mongoan culture he's become, to find the suggestion surprising.

Originally Posted by warellis

I don't think East Asian cultures on Inp-Earth are really any better about homosexuality. Take Japan for example and that whole "Schoolgirl Lesbian Romance" thing a lot of anime has. One thing you notice is that it's considered okay for the girls to engage in that when they're younger but as they grow up they're supposed to drop it and get married to a man because Schoolgirl Lesbianism is childish and a sign of immaturity. That doesn't seem very friendly to lesbianism.

Admittedly that's for Japan, which really isn't a homosexual-friendly country. I don't know enough about other East Asian cultures to comment on them.

Not sure. Japan might be one of those cultures I mentioned earlier, that doesn't care what you do, as long as you do it far away. Anyone know?

Originally Posted by warellis

My comments about Fa-Earth were more focused on Rome and Greece admittedly. I suspect the Iroquois nation will have less a problem about Mongo due to Native American cultures being more tolerant of different sexuality. But I suspect the Old world cultures (Europe, Middle East, and Asian) will be less tolerant of lesbianism. I'm speaking of Fa-Earth.

Most likely.

I mentioned a Great Disaster on Mongo earlier in this post, and I think I should elaborate on it - perhaps someone will be able to suggest a better name:

Some centuries ago, a (very) mad scientist on Mongo wanted to be the Greatest Scientist in the World. Rather than work and study hard enough to achieve that legitimately, this scientist, whose name has been erased from history, chose to develop and detonate a 'thought bomb', a powerful, single use telepathic device which induced permanent incompetence in many scientific and technical fields, in practically everyone on Mongo, or in the Nemesian system (an achievement of such difficulty that the mad scientist might even have deserved the title they sought - if they hadn't detonated it). The changes wrought by the thought bomb even breed true, though these effects are fading, as the generations go by. Already, it's fairly rare to find someone who cannot learn Biology, or various medical skills, for example, and Machinist & Mechanic are likewise growing common.

The most common incompetencies are as follows:

Incompetence (Bioengineering) [-1]
Incompetence (Chemistry) [-1]
Incompetence (Computer Programming) [-1]
Incompetence (Electronics Repair) [-1]
Incompetence (Engineering) [-1]
Incompetence (Mathematics) [-1]
Incompetence (Physics) [-1]
Incompetence (Psychology) [-1]
Incompetence (Sociology) [-1]
Incompetence (Weird Science) [-1]

Of these, only Incompetence (Bioengineering) was generally present in Mongoan humans before the thought bomb was detonated (in fact, it's common to practically every human in the Dp-Earth universe who isn't from Dp-Earth). The reason they haven't been grouped together in a single advantage is that specific Incompetencies are sometimes absent from specific people (e.g. Aura, who is quite good at Psychology and Sociology), who if discovered, often become scientists and technicians, and tend to have some level of Social Regard... except in places where they have a Social Stigma for being strange, or where they blame all 'thinky people' for the actions of one nut (Dr. Zarkov, being one of those polymath geniuses that seem so much more common on Dp-Earth and Stp-Earth than they are on the ones in the middle, has a whole lot of women wanting to breed with him, something he's really not used to). The thought bomb is one of the primary reasons for the eccentric Tech Levels on Mongo, as the Old Civilization built things to last, while the New Civilization is still recovering from TL2-or-so barbarism.

A campaign set on Mongo right after the thought bomb went off, or for two or three generations thereafter, would also have Incompetencies in the various Operation skills (Computer Operation, Electronics Operation, Driving, Piloting, et cetra) that involve higher-tech vehicles, as well as Research, most other scientific and technical skills, and medical skills beyond First Aid & Esoteric Medicine (the population numbers are still recovering from the massive post-Disaster crash). They didn't start being able to reinvent the old skills until the Old Civilization was little more than tales from long before living memory, so the fact that they're doing even as well as they are is really quite impressive.

It takes some effort to plausibly justify a 'planetary romance' world like Mongo, but I think this works well enough, and if there are significant problems, I hope someone will point them out.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by warellis

I don't think East Asian cultures on Inp-Earth are really any better about homosexuality. Take Japan for example and that whole "Schoolgirl Lesbian Romance" thing a lot of anime has. One thing you notice is that it's considered okay for the girls to engage in that when they're younger but as they grow up they're supposed to drop it and get married to a man because Schoolgirl Lesbianism is childish and a sign of immaturity. That doesn't seem very friendly to lesbianism.

Admittedly that's for Japan, which really isn't a homosexual-friendly country. I don't know enough about other East Asian cultures to comment on them.

Japanese literature refers to homosexual activity back to ancient times, I think, albeit mostly between men and younger boys (sorta like the Greeks, in that way). They supposedly adopted ways of thinking about the practice from ancient Chinese culture. Again, I think "discretion" is key, in both cultures.

I think you're correct about traditional Japanese views of lesbianism, though, based on the (very little) reading I've done about it. This is not a huge area of interest for me, really.

That said, I think the Inp-Japanese would definitely lie on the "tolerant" end of the spectrum of world cultural views of the practice. Perhaps not as far out as Europeans or the nations of the British Commonwealth, and perhaps a bit behind the more liberal areas of the United States. However, while they do not recognize same-sex marriage, they also have none of the laws against sodomy that many conservative Americans very much would like to put back on the books.

Mostly, I think they'd decide to treat it as a "non-issue," especially if it would interfere with their ability to open up trade with Mongo, and any diplomat from Inp-Japan would have zero problems bowing deeply to either Empress Dale or Empress Aura.

Hey, PC, where did you post the stuff about Mongo, anyway? I can't find it, quickly.

[samd6]

Posting here, since SB tends to get eaten by the lag monster.

How long before somebody on DP- or StP-Earth invents a hyperwave radio* or someone on Inp-Earth invents a quantum modem*? On second thought that's not the right question as one-off inventions seem to be a staple of StP- and DP-Earth's genre thoughtforms. A reproducible, reliable quantum modem or hyperwave radio will have profound effects on the setting, especially InP- and DP-Earths.

Such a thing will almost certainly get invented, though it is likely to be too large for personal use. I figure somewhere between one and two cubic meters for a quantum modem, and around the size of a shipping container for a hyperwave radio. (Vacuum tubes don'cha know.)

*The same thing really, just with different names and differences in how they are used.

[dcarson]

Has anyone on DP Earth started looking for deep openings in the polar regions?

[warellis]

Originally Posted by samd6

Posting here, since SB tends to get eaten by the lag monster.

How long before somebody on DP- or StP-Earth invents a hyperwave radio* or someone on Inp-Earth invents a quantum modem*? On second thought that's not the right question as one-off inventions seem to be a staple of StP- and DP-Earth's genre thoughtforms. A reproducible, reliable quantum modem or hyperwave radio will have profound effects on the setting, especially InP- and DP-Earths.

Such a thing will almost certainly get invented, though it is likely to be too large for personal use. I figure somewhere between one and two cubic meters for a quantum modem, and around the size of a shipping container for a hyperwave radio. (Vacuum tubes don'cha know.)

*The same thing really, just with different names and differences in how they are used.

What are the differences in how they're used? Are they different in how they function despite achieving the same objective? Is a "quantum modem" some sort of quantum entanglement communicator?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Hey, PC, where did you post the stuff about Mongo, anyway? I can't find it, quickly.

I think most of what I've posted on Mongo has been here in this thread, just recently, apart from a few off-hand mentions, here and in the thread on SB.com that I can't really get to right now, as this is around the time that the lag sets in. What specifically are you looking for?

I wonder if Google searches have any effect on the lag.

Originally Posted by samd6

Posting here, since SB tends to get eaten by the lag monster.

How long before somebody on DP- or StP-Earth invents a hyperwave radio* or someone on Inp-Earth invents a quantum modem*? On second thought that's not the right question as one-off inventions seem to be a staple of StP- and DP-Earth's genre thoughtforms. A reproducible, reliable quantum modem or hyperwave radio will have profound effects on the setting, especially InP- and DP-Earths.

Such a thing will almost certainly get invented, though it is likely to be too large for personal use. I figure somewhere between one and two cubic meters for a quantum modem, and around the size of a shipping container for a hyperwave radio. (Vacuum tubes don'cha know.)

*The same thing really, just with different names and differences in how they are used.

Well, young Lex Luthor already made a couple (see April 17th), but they're not exactly something easily reproducible (and he doesn't know at first that they work at FTL speeds, because he didn't know how internet protocols worked - one he learns that, he can upgrade them so that it doesn't take 52 to 104 seconds for a 'round trip'). If he weren't a kid, he could simply patent it, and make a fortune slowly making more of them with the help of other madboys and madgirls, but even if he can find a way around the 'just a kid' issue, he needs to get out from under his father's thumb, first (which means he needs to admit to himself that he needs to get out from under his father's thumb). The elder Luthor (Alexei) has some classic villain psychological issues, like the belief that making a profit off his inventions by patenting and selling them is 'missing the point', since patenting things requires telling other ('lesser') people how to make them, which is unacceptable to him.

If Lex does admit that he needs to get out from under his father's thumb, he has ample opportunity to do so, but not in a way that doesn't basically cut his ties, and make an enemy of a supervillain who's older and more experienced than he is - on the other hand, it would be totally in keeping with his long-term plan to put himself beyond reproach, so that even Superman does not suspect Lex of trying to kill him, until it's too late (the maniacal laughter is only in Lex's head, because he isn't so foolish as to let it out). It would help if he can get his sister out from under their father's thumb, also, but their mother is pretty much a lost cause, which makes it even harder for him to make that decision.

Lex might be able to get a patent on Inp-Earth, maybe, though interplanetary legalities are something I've had problems working out. Even then, he'd need to find someone with a compatible form of Weird Science to set up the factory, or someone with Klaus Wulfenbach's adaptability, to convert it into something others can use (not necessarily on the same level as the Baron, but there are a number of people on Inp-Earth, and smaller numbers on each of the other Earths, who can convert rituals from one style to another - for most, it just requires having high enough skill rolls in each style (with penalties at least one worse than the penalty for the technique*), which still means they have to learn Lex's style; otherwise they would need to reverse-engineer it, which is harder: Assume a base penalty of twice the normal penalty for the technique, along with whatever the Invention rules say about reverse-engineering, *plus, in both conversion and reverse-engineering, whatever penalty the GM considers appropriate for how similar or different your styles are).

So, if they have to wait for Lex, it's probably going to be a few years, unless someone can convince me that the 'patent it on Inp-Earth' idea is sufficiently plausible, and sufficiently in-character. If someone can do that, it'll be some time in early 1942/2014. Otherwise, it'll more likely be later that year, or into 1943/2015 - unless I get inspired, like by finding someone in fiction that's perfect for the inventor.

Originally Posted by dcarson

Has anyone on DP Earth started looking for deep openings in the polar regions?

Yes. They have some damn big cave-complexes, as well as gates to strange alternate dimensions that have been mistaken for paths to the Centre of the Earth.

Originally Posted by warellis

What are the differences in how they're used? Are they different in how they function despite achieving the same objective? Is a "quantum modem" some sort of quantum entanglement communicator?

Based on samd6's post, I think they're both mostly the same thing, and 'quantum' was just added to the latter because some madboys/madgirls on Inp-Earth would do that, even though quantum entanglement has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that a modem is designed to interface with computers, so it might achieve FTL communication by creating very-long-range ergokinesis, rather than telepathically contacting internet spirits, like Lex's first radio-computers. 'Hyperwave radio', or whatever other nae it gets, could simply be a radio-like device that works at FTL speeds, with no ability to interface with computers, unless hooked up to a normal modem.

I have been working on a post about FTL methods, including FTL communications, BTW. This discussion is helping.

You can use ESP for FTL communications, but you have to know exactly where to look, which is hard enough in the same planet, much less multiple light-seconds away, and you can only make it to-way if both sides are using it - it's like two people atop two trees miles apart, with telescopes and collections of semaphore flags: if both are looking at the right trees, they can hold a conversation, but they need to find each other, first. Beacons are helpful, here, if you know how to make them.

I hope I haven't forgotten or missed anything.

EDIT: I wonder if converting rituals from one style to another is worth a Pyramid article. Not sure it would be long enough, and I'd have to work out what to do if the base skills of each are of different difficulty levels (id est, is it harder to convert a technique from a Hard skill to a Very Hard skill, than vice versa, or should it just be -1 either way?), but I should do that, anyway. Should probably PM Kromm or PK, once I find the things earlier in the thread I needed rulings on (and things in another thread of mine that haven't been commented on, and could do with rulings; the first few posts have been ruled on, but not the later ones).

[samd6]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Based on samd6's post, I think they're both mostly the same thing, and 'quantum' was just added to the latter because some madboys/madgirls on Inp-Earth would do that, even though quantum entanglement has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that a modem is designed to interface with computers, so it might achieve FTL communication by creating very-long-range ergokinesis, rather than telepathically contacting internet spirits, like Lex's first radio-computers. 'Hyperwave radio', or whatever other nae it gets, could simply be a radio-like device that works at FTL speeds, with no ability to interface with computers, unless hooked up to a normal modem.

Pretty much that. The quantum modem and Hyperwave radio serve the same narrative purpose of reliable FTL communication, while at the same time being large or expensive enough that they aren't used casually. Also, when people on Inp-Earth think of fast long distance communication, they tend to think of exchanging data be it via email, SMS, FTP, or phone; people on DP-Earth think of the telephone or telegraph, both of which are limited to human speeds. There is no reason why hooking a Hyperwave radio up to a normal modem wouldn't work, nor is there any reason why voice transmission using a quantum modem shouldn't work.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by samd6

Pretty much that. The quantum modem and Hyperwave radio serve the same narrative purpose of reliable FTL communication, while at the same time being large or expensive enough that they aren't used casually. Also, when people on Inp-Earth think of fast long distance communication, they tend to think of exchanging data be it via email, SMS, FTP, or phone; people on DP-Earth think of the telephone or telegraph, both of which are limited to human speeds. There is no reason why hooking a Hyperwave radio up to a normal modem wouldn't work, nor is there any reason why voice transmission using a quantum modem shouldn't work.

OK, thought so. I've been thinking that for things like voice and pictures, Telepathy and ESP work quite well, but for computer files, you want EK (Lex didn't notice at first, because his computer barely had the memory for text, much less pictures or computer programs, and being one of the more brilliant/powerful madboys on Dp-Earth, he could brute-force it to work; it's not like he needed it to be portable)... it's just that it's harder to make EK work at such long ranges - and just like Telepathy and ESP, you need a target.

EDIT: Namewise, 'hyperwave radio' is great for something from Dp-Earth, but might not work so well for something from Stp-Earth. 'Ultra-Velocity Æthergraph', maybe?