03-30-2023, 07:25 AM | #31 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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It's not just for normally two-handed weapons though. Several posts ago I said hafted weapons only need enough available haft. If you allow Defensive Grip on absolutely everything you end wondering how that works with fist-loads like a yawara.
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Fred Brackin |
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03-30-2023, 10:48 AM | #32 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
This is really just a legacy of the sword skills being excessively narrow. Though it's also a function of combat skills being a butt too specialized in general: much of the fundamentals for using a weapon are the same body core body mechanics. Martial Arts addresses this with a variety of optional rules and perks.
But the weirdness where an expert swordsman suddenly becomes a novice makes little sense. At my table, I would only apply the penalties for two handed use, not require the use of two handed sword skills. If I didn't just group all swords into a single "sword" skill. Or have a single Fight! Skill for all melee combat.
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03-30-2023, 11:12 AM | #33 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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I have been practicing martial arts for most my life, spending the last decade or so on armed combat styles. I have learned longsword, messer, sword and buckler, saber, and rapier. I can attest that going from one-handed to two-handed, and vis versa, can turn an expert into a novice until they learn a few techniques and get comfortable. I started in Kendo and transitioned into longsword. After a few years I picked up messer and oh boy was it different. As different as it was from saber too. The combat skills are not "fighting styles" despite their names (looking at you "karate" skill), but are meant to simulate different methods of using a weapon, which sounds the same! The easiest example are the pole arm skills. Does it have a striking head and is unbalanced? -> polearm skill Does it have a striking head and is balanced? -> spear skill Does it not have a striking head and is balanced? -> staff skill Which leads to the missing: Does it not have a striking head and is unbalanced? -> depends the point is this: If the weapon is meant for one-handed use, the handle can only accommodate one hand, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip. If the weapon is meant for two-handed use, the handle can accommodate two hands, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip. If the weapon is meant for one- or two-handed use, the handle can accommodate more than one hand, then it uses a certain rule for defensive grip. |
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03-30-2023, 12:11 PM | #34 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
The problem with the rule as we have it is that it makes a condition that looks useful, and then says you can't have it, with both steps of that not making sense.
First, using your 1/2 hand weapon in the one-handed style of defensive grip. This shouldn't be appealing - the defensive grip for one-handed-only weapons as described seems to be just an inferior form of normal two-handed wielding. But it has bonuses that two-handed wielding doesn't get and can't get. Why? Also, you get to do it using a different skill, avoiding a significant default penalty. And then once that's been made into something you might want to do, you're told you can't do it for no discernible reason. Hilt's too long, no hilt-only-defensive grip for you.
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03-30-2023, 12:54 PM | #35 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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Two fighters, A and B A has Broadsword skill 14 B has Two-handed sword skill 14 Broadsword weapon uses Broadsword skill, it does: sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr Parry +0 A Using defensive grip: Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 8 (defaulted from broadsword skill 14 and -2 to attack rolls) sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr Parry +1 from front extra -1 to parry attacks from the side B Using defensive grip: Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 12 (-2 to attack rolls) sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr Parry +1 from front extra -1 to parry attacks from the side Bastard Sword uses Broadsword skill OR two-handed sword skill, it does: One-handed: sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr Parry +0U Two-handed: sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr parry +0 A Using defensive grip: Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 10 (defaulted from broadsword skill 14) sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr Parry +1 from front -1 to odds of breakage -2 to hit with a Wild Swing -2 sw damage or -1 sw damage per die, whichever is worse extra -1 to parry attacks from the side B Using defensive grip: Skill to use: Two-handed sword skill 14 sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr Parry +1 from front -1 to odds of breakage -2 to hit with a Wild Swing -2 sw damage or -1 sw damage per die, whichever is worse extra -1 to parry attacks from the side Look at it this way: Ignoring defensive grip, if you hold a sword in one hand, you use broadsword skill. If you hold it in two hands, you use two-handed sword skill. |
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03-30-2023, 01:25 PM | #36 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
I don't believe the actual rule says that using defensive grip on a one-handed weapon requires using a whole different skill...
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I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident. |
03-30-2023, 01:38 PM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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Why is that? Because the actual stats, assuming no Combat Reflexes (which gives a +1 to Parry in all cases, so is a wash), work out to: Broadsword, one-handed Attack 14 Damage sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr Parry 10 to Front, Parry 8 to Side Broadsword, Defensive Grip Attack 8 Damage sw+2 cut or thr+2 cr Parry 9 to Front (8+1), 7 to Side (8-1) Bastard Sword, one-handed Attack 14 Damage sw+1 cut or thr+1 cr Parry 10U Bastard Sword, Defensive Grip Attack 10 Damage sw cut or thr+2 cr Parry 9 to Front (8+1), 7 to Side (8-1) If Defensive Grip lets you use Broadsword for those weapons (and the Broadsword stats and one-handed rules), however, then there is a purpose for Defensive Grip with a one-handed weapon - +1 damage, -2 attack, +1 defense from the front.
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03-30-2023, 01:54 PM | #38 | |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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For one-handed weapons: "...Treat the weapon as two-handed for all purposes." Then again after explaining the two different ways: "Treat a weapon that can be used one- or two-handed – such as a bastard sword or a spear – as two-handed for this purpose." Everyone that is arguing it doesn't is forgetting some important rules, namely the rules found under "Ready Maneuver" Specifically "Switching Weapon Skills" on page 104 in MA. Other wise the perks Form Mastery, Grip Mastery, and Weapon Adaptation not make sense. |
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03-30-2023, 06:31 PM | #39 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: L.I., NY
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
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To me, that's a strong argument to not interpret it that way, and also to not interpret: Quote:
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There are weapons that by the RAW can be used in defensive grip, but that have no corresponding 'two-handed' skill. There are weapons that you can hold in a defensive grip with broadsword skill, but have no stats for use with a 'two-handed' skill. This makes it seem most likely to me that the defensive grip does not require the use of a 'two-handed' skill. It is a special case where you use two hands with a skill that usually uses one hand. |
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03-31-2023, 06:03 AM | #40 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
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Re: Katana in defensive grip
Martial Arts Page 220, "One-Handed Two-Handers" This explains that when a fighter, who has enough strength, uses a two-handed weapon, that only has stats listed under two-handed weapon skill, what skill is required to use.
A Two-handed weapon like the great sword, which only has stats under the two-handed weapon list, has the stats: Greatsword sw+3 cut or thr+2 cr And uses the two-handed weapon skill, because you are using two hands. But when used one-handed: Greatsword sw+2 cut or thr+1 cr And uses the broadsword skill, because you are now using one hand. The reverse is also true, going from using one hand to two hands changes the skill required. The exception to this, as noted on page 220, is the spear skill. Weather you use one or two hands, you still use the spear skill. Polearm is even worse, requiring 2 different skills depending on if you are swinging the weapon (axe/mace skill) or thrusting it (spear skill). The broadsword skill is for using weapons in one hand, not two. If using two hands, you use the two-handed sword skill. EDIT:: Found a quote that squashes all other comments and mine. LET IT BE KNOWN Last edited by zoncxs; 03-31-2023 at 07:45 AM. |
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