The 0-point traitless character.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by PTTG

As always, that Kromm post clarified a lot of things. Our 0-pointer is working off of default on everything, so like that post indicates, they're going to be disheveled, lost, boring, confused, AND computer illiterate...

I would suggest that this ignores the role of bonuses for doing simple, rote tasks in non-adventuring situations.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The majority of students have 10 in their attributes when they graduate, but they probably graduate high school with 50 points in skills. The problem is that Mathematics (Pure)-8 is just enough to get you into trouble and History (USA)-8 is only useful for trivia night after high school. The average student in the USA goes to 72 year-long classes over 12 years, though their rate of learning depends on the amount of money their community (or parents) spends on their education and their own individual capabilities. ,

Te only reason why a student isn't struggling right out of high school is because he has parents who cover him for the first few years while he gets some actually marketable skills.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The majority of students have 10 in their attributes when they graduate, but they probably graduate high school with 50 points in skills. The problem is that Mathematics (Pure)-8 is just enough to get you into trouble and History (USA)-8 is only useful for trivia night after high school. The average student in the USA goes to 72 year-long classes over 12 years, though their rate of learning depends on the amount of money their community (or parents) spends on their education and their own individual capabilities.

You're assuming that all of that study time goes to buying skills. I don't believe that's the case.

Schools are organized on the assumption that first graders come in not knowing how to read or write; and as I said previously, they mostly have some pronunciation issues and a small vocabulary. Call it English (Accented/None). Buying that off is 4 points.

First graders come in able to count and maybe add on their fingers. That's Innumerate. Buying that off is 5 points.

While children don't get Social Stigma (Uneducated), because no one expects them to be educated, if they don't become educated they'll certainly have it at 18. So I figure what they're doing is paying in advance so that their Social Stigma (Minor) will go away instead of turning into (Uneducated). That's 5 points.

Per the Basic Set, a 5-year-old has 70% of adult IQ, typically 7. His IQ needs to go up 3 points, which costs 60 points. Now, granted, his Per probably goes up mainly outside of school, and likewise his Will, and some of his IQ represents intellectual maturation. But IQ also includes general knowledge. So let's say 15 of those 60 points represent a mixture of gaining general knowledge and learning certain skills of learning, memory, and reasoning.

I'm also going to say that when I was in school we had a long summer vacation and breaks in winter and spring. I know that schools are nominally year-round, but they seem to have more frequent short breaks, and also the teacher I know seems to have a lot of half days or full days devoted to meetings or other activities that don't involve students (I guess the students have to stay home?), which wasn't the case in my time. So I'm guessing we still have 36 weeks a year. And at least in elementary school, students aren't expected to put in adult-equivalent full-time work. It looks as if it's 800 hours a year in the lower grades and 1000 in the middle grades.

I don't think your argument takes any of these factors into account.

[dcarson]

Graduate high school with a C average, have no real interest in sports, no hobby you are dedicated to and yeah, 0 points in skills.

Have a some of, 3.5-4.0 GPA, varsity sport, really dedicated hobby you can have a handful or more of points in skills.

More then a 4.0 GPA that gets a full scholarship to a Ivy League university or founded you own business that is making five or six figures before you are out of high school. Lots of points.

Don't know for sure how she did in high school but I expect that this years GOH for Balticon, Catherine Asaro who while getting her PHD at Harvard also founded and starred in the Harvard Ballet Company had lots.

[Sam Baughn]

I'm fairly sure it's easy to get to adulthood without any points in skills. Maybe the average person is better than that, but there are going to be people who are below average.

The difficult thing is getting a decent income without any skills, advantages or raised attributes.

Somewhere which pays you decent money while they train you? Can't think of any examples of that which don't require any traits off the top of my head.

Factory workers used to earn decent money, didn't they? While working on an assembly line is something you need to learn, I don't think it qualifies as a skill in GURPS terms.

Does a scribe need any skills, or just to be literate? Did scribes earn average wages?

I suspect that most of the people with no skills but earning decent money will be found in jobs which are easy to get into but most people don't want to do because they are too dangerous, stigmatised or unpleasant.

A good prostitute probably has several skills and advantages, while an average one probably has a little skill and some disadvantages, but I wouldn't be shocked if there are some who are simply default characters. Unless you consider being a prostitute to be worth a social stigma or something.

Do you need to be able to drive to be a binman? I expect most of them pick up some extra ST, HT and the Lifting skill pretty quickly, but it seems likely that many of them don't until they have spent some time on the job and I believe the pay is the same regardless.

Last year I had a tour of a coal mine by an ex-miner. From what he said the only trait really needed to start working in a mine was the willingness to put up with horrible working conditions and they made decent money right away, rising to pretty damn good with some experience (although by then they would likely have earned some points in ST, skills, etc.)

[AlexanderHowl]

Working on the assembly line requires Machinist or another craft skill (assembly lines do not allow unskilled people to do competent work, they allow people with average skill to do good work). Scribes need Artist (Calligraphy) and Writing. Secretaries need Administration, Research, Typing, and Writing. Even a laborer needs ST 12+ in most settings.

Consenting prostitutes need rather high levels of skills since they can charge around $250 to $750 per hour, depending on their market and their qualities, since they are renting their consent for sex. Forced prostitutes just need to have a credible threat that forces them to tolerate rape and slavery.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I would suggest that this ignores the role of bonuses for doing simple, rote tasks in non-adventuring situations.

They may not be "disheveled, lost, boring, confused, AND computer illiterate" all the time, but they will be significantly more often than people with a score 4 better in the respective skill.

Unless you assume that the bonuses are so big that even they can't practically fail.

[Celjabba]

There are 2 schools about default/1 point in skill for routine, day-to-day skills:

-One consider that most people operate at default, or at most a dabbler perk on most day-to-day skills, with a full skill point (or more) reserved to notably skilled people.
This is supported by, among other things, reversing the rule about time to learn skills and by percentage of success using positive routine TDM.

-the other consider that anyone using a skill more than occasionnaly have at least a dabbler skill, with a full point gained very fast as soon as you start using it regularly. Higher level being harder to earn.
This is supported by, among other things, the familiarity rule and perhaps 3e heritage of the now disseapeared half-point.

A few Krommquotes, that support both point of views :)

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...92&postcount=9
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...1&postcount=59
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...97&postcount=4

The truth, I guess, is somewhere in the middle, but I would expect a functionning character to have at least a few 1 points skills, or disadvantages explaining why not.

[ULFGARD]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I will quibble (unnecessary digression that it is) that without a College education one is still treated as Social Stigma (Uneducated) by large swathes of society.

Though, admittedly, I'm not sure if that's Intolerance or Social Stigma and it may be below GURPS' resolution to determine (i suspect it's a little of both).

I would argue Intolerance. I work for a university, have a MS, and yet live in the country. While I don't feel out of place in the university environment, I feel much more at home in the country among people who, for the most part, lack any education beyond high school. Many of these people are in various trades.

Long ago, I realized that the amount of skill that goes into their jobs is no less than what goes into most of the faculty members I work for. Yet I find that many in academia look down on anyone who lacks a 4 year degree (or is actively pursuing one). Of course, there are quite a few people I live around who would have a similar disdain for the ivory tower intellectuals.

Even when I worked in the private sector, I found the same thing to be true. Of course, my experience and opinions aren't proof of anything.

If it wasn't 'one-hundred thousand', my calculator is full of lies.

I've got to assume that it was a typo somewhere. 1%? Or the answer was 10 thousand?

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Note that there's a special default to full IQ for Area Knowledge of your home region.

I believe this is a misreading of the Area Knowledge skill. From what I can read, the default is IQ-4, and you’re only allowed to have the default of IQ-4 if you’ve lived in a location. So our traitless character knows very little about his surroundings.