The 0-point traitless character.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

Is it really so hard to believe that a normal person wouldn't have any points in skills? I don't think I've got any beyond hobby skills and a lot of people don't even have hobbies. There seem to be plenty of people whose entire job requirements are 'fully literate, no serious mental problems'. Admittedly, most of them would be 'struggling' wealth, but there must be some who make good money.

Why would that have to be? Sure, you can probably do data-entry or phone-bank work with that, but I don't think anybody doing that makes good money.

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

How much does a fresh recruit in the military earn? Before they get any training.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In the USA, $1100 (2018) per month, which is the equivalent of $550 per month (GURPS), and they learn stuff in basic training or they are kicked out.

They also get room and board, of course. But at that point they aren't being paid for what they do, they're being paid to maintain them while they're prepared for what they will be doing later in their enlistment.

And they don't have a blank character sheet. Military Rank and/or Duty...

[edk926]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This character would probably have to be a bioroid-like individual, except created through techniques that don't result in Unusual Biochemistry, in a society where such individuals don't suffer a Social Stigma, with some kind of rapid-learning technology used to install basic language and math skills (and some basic cultural knowledge) but nothing else. The backstory as some sort of lab creation seems necessary to explain the total lack of skills. For what that means, this Kromm post might be useful.

Today I learned I have major issues.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

Is it really so hard to believe that a normal person wouldn't have any points in skills?

On-the-job training is expected to give you a point in about five months. It's reasonable to think people don't continually gain job skills past a certain point, but pretty much any job will have at least granted you a relevant Expert skill.

Originally Posted by Sam Baughn

How much does a fresh recruit in the military earn? Before they get any training.

A fresh recruit is on a term contract of typically 4 years; pay as a trainee is essentially a prepayment on later wages, as the recruit is not providing any useful services until he's trained.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

(for the people who claim that high school is just for developing defaults, the majority of the people in human history would like a word with you).

It's more for developing IQ; that's how you reflect improvement in general knowledge rather than specific specializations. That said, most people will have picked up some more specific experiences as well as general knowledge.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by edk926

Today I learned I have major issues.

Since you're posting here and presumably live somewhere, you've got two of the 5 covered for sure. Since you post here, you most likely check off Games as well.

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's more for developing IQ; that's how you reflect improvement in general knowledge rather than specific specializations. That said, most people will have picked up some more specific experiences as well as general knowledge.

I think it's pretty clear that high school wants people to come out with some hints of specific competence in Writing and Mathematics (Applied), at least.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

But when I do, I can stop whenever I want, because I don't have Alcoholism or Compulsive Carousing.


Stay boring, my friends.

It should end with, "And I drink plenty of water. Stay hydrated, my friends".

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think it's pretty clear that high school wants people to come out with some hints of specific competence in Writing and Mathematics (Applied), at least.

Pretty sure I got out with Writing at default. But having known people for whom Mathematics (Applied) is a default, I'm pretty sure I managed a whole point in that one. Maybe it's a Dabbler skill though... I'm not much good once we stray too far away from MDAS and into the 'E' of PE (and I screw up Parenthesis too sometimes).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

But having known people for whom Mathematics (Applied) is a default, I'm pretty sure I managed a whole point in that one.

A lot of real-world skills have the problem that they're actually a fairly large number of binary competencies (either you know how to do X, or you don't; if you don't know how to do X you might still be able to figure it out but it will be a lot slower and more error prone), whereas in GURPS having one point because you actually learned algebra means you can roll to solve a calculus problem, and probably aren't even that badly off (treating a year of high school math as a point, that's the difference between IQ-2 and IQ+0).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A lot of real-world skills have the problem that they're actually a fairly large number of binary competencies (either you know how to do X, or you don't; if you don't know how to do X you might still be able to figure it out but it will be a lot slower and more error prone), whereas in GURPS having one point because you actually learned algebra means you can roll to solve a calculus problem, and probably aren't even that badly off (treating a year of high school math as a point, that's the difference between IQ-2 and IQ+0).

Well, partly a large number of binary competencies, part a general competence waterline. You can have two people who've learned the same checkboxes but are very different in how good they are at executing them. (In at least some skills, the competence metric will need to be multidimensional to be anywhere near real-world as well.)

But yeah, that's more resolution than GURPS likes to have.

[PTTG]

As always, that Kromm post clarified a lot of things. Our 0-pointer is working off of default on everything, so like that post indicates, they're going to be disheveled, lost, boring, confused, AND computer illiterate... however, they're not Confused [-10], because they're not overstimulated by the world nor slow to learn; his or her current predicament is temporary.

There might be room for a campaign that started out with zero-point blank slates with the idea that the players will shape them into interesting and powerful characters in time.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think it's pretty clear that high school wants people to come out with some hints of specific competence in Writing and Mathematics (Applied), at least.

I don't believe that high school does either of those. What an education through high school does is buy off Language (Native; None) [-3], Innumerate [-5], and Social Stigma (Uneducated) [-5]. (Arguably children entering elementary school actually have Language (Accented; None), as they usually have limited vocabulary and some pronunciation issues; that's one more point.)

Now, a sixteen-year-old actually has Social Stigma (Minor) [-5], and doesn't have an extra reaction modifier for (Uneducated), as they aren't expected to be educated. But if they don't overcome (Uneducated) in high school, they will reach 18 and (Minor) will turn into (Uneducated).

As I see it, Mathematics (Applied), for example, has two somewhat different aspects. One is knowledge of mathematics going beyond general education. But general education includes everything up to calculus, though depending on your IQ, your particular general education may only go up to arithmetic or algebra. Mathematics (Applied) is things like differential equations, spectral analysis, vector analysis, and numerical methods—basically, the tools of the physical (or more broadly the natural) sciences. But the other is the ability to reason about the real world using mathematical concepts and relations. And that can be based on "general education" math like plane geometry or even arithmetic; what's important is that the quantitative relationships aren't just abstract formulas that you've memorized, but that you can look at the physical world and see it in terms of quantities and relationships between quantities. An exceptional high school student could have that! But they'd want to buy the Advanced Learning perk (which can be credited toward buying off Social Stigma (Uneducated) when the time comes). And a high school student whose mathematics was mainly the ability to pass tests wouldn't have either the perk or the skill, I think.

As for writing, well, I just saw a comment from one of my wife's oldest friends, who's a university instructor. She had been giving exams that called for short essay answers to questions. She has just decided that she will no longer do that at all in lower division courses; apparently the majority of her students—mind you, these are students who got into a four-year college!—express themselves so poorly in writing that it's very hard for her to tell what point they're trying to make, or whether it has any relevance to the question. She's going over to all multiple choice. I'm going to say that the students who get into that university clearly don't have even 1 point in Writing. And again, there are high school students who are exceptions.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't believe that high school does either of those. What an education through high school does is buy off Language (Native; None) [-3], Innumerate [-5], and Social Stigma (Uneducated) [-5]. (Arguably children entering elementary school actually have Language (Accented; None), as they usually have limited vocabulary and some pronunciation issues; that's one more point.)

Now, a sixteen-year-old actually has Social Stigma (Minor) [-5], and doesn't have an extra reaction modifier for (Uneducated), as they aren't expected to be educated. But if they don't overcome (Uneducated) in high school, they will reach 18 and (Minor) will turn into (Uneducated).

It's convenient for your argument to merge together all education 'through' high school, perhaps, but it rather elides what happens in high school. If you're starting high school with Innumerate, you belong in a special education program. If you're not...they're going to try to teach you quite a bit of math.

Originally Posted by whswhs

As I see it, Mathematics (Applied), for example, has two somewhat different aspects. One is knowledge of mathematics going beyond general education. But general education includes everything up to calculus, though depending on your IQ, your particular general education may only go up to arithmetic or algebra. Mathematics (Applied) is things like differential equations, spectral analysis, vector analysis, and numerical methods—basically, the tools of the physical (or more broadly the natural) sciences. But the other is the ability to reason about the real world using mathematical concepts and relations. And that can be based on "general education" math like plane geometry or even arithmetic; what's important is that the quantitative relationships aren't just abstract formulas that you've memorized, but that you can look at the physical world and see it in terms of quantities and relationships between quantities. An exceptional high school student could have that! But they'd want to buy the Advanced Learning perk (which can be credited toward buying off Social Stigma (Uneducated) when the time comes). And a high school student whose mathematics was mainly the ability to pass tests wouldn't have either the perk or the skill, I think.

I'm going to contest that (A) it's ludicrous to declare that math through calculus doesn't fall under any skill whatsoever, and (B) that having written Low Tech Companion 1 you really should have come face to face with that already.

Originally Posted by whswhs

As for writing, well, I just saw a comment from one of my wife's oldest friends, who's a university instructor. She had been giving exams that called for short essay answers to questions. She has just decided that she will no longer do that at all in lower division courses; apparently the majority of her students—mind you, these are students who got into a four-year college!—express themselves so poorly in writing that it's very hard for her to tell what point they're trying to make, or whether it has any relevance to the question. She's going over to all multiple choice. I'm going to say that the students who get into that university clearly don't have even 1 point in Writing. And again, there are high school students who are exceptions.

What education wants to achieve and what it actually does achieve are not always the same thing.

Ph.Ds often successfully publish papers that are atrociously written. That doesn't mean nobody ever tried to teach them to write.