Blunderbuss

Steve Jackson · 05-26-2018, 06:31 PM

One thing I have learned over the past decades is that the "blunderbuss" that I was trying to represent was a comic-book version. They don't really fire a hugely spread pattern, and they don't have to kick like two mules.

New Blunderbuss draft:

The blunderbuss is a crude shotgun. It is a missile weapon, with a maximum range of 10 hexes. The roll to hit with the blunderbuss is at DX+2. All “rolls to miss” with the blunderbuss, against figures both in front of and behind the intended target, are at -2.
The blunderbuss does 1d+2 damage to the first figure it hits, and 1d-2 to everyone else it hits.
Even when you hit something with the blunderbuss, continue to make rolls to miss or hit all other figures in a straight line out to 10 hexes.

~~Jim Kane~~ · 05-26-2018, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

...Even when you hit something with the blunderbuss, continue to make rolls to miss or hit all other figures in a straight line out to 10 hexes.

STEVE, Are you purposefully choosing not to simulate any type of "shot-gun spread pattern over distance" for a specific design reason; and therefore electing to render it as a straight-line effect instead?

Also, what is your reasoning behind having a completely indiscriminate weapon grant the user the ability to select who it might hit, and who it might miss within it's effective range?

I think we could offer better feedback, if we understood your rational behind a stated rule.

JK

Kirk · 05-26-2018, 08:13 PM

I think we always took the blunderbuss as a cartoonish joke, like Wrestling (for Greeks only) ;).

I shoot Cowboy Action and grew up shooting, and have some experience with shotguns, shooting a double-barreled one about once or twice a month 30 plus times. I also have a 410 derringer with a 1 inch barrel.

Targets vary, some for knockdown, some that move, some that pop up and "fly".

The biggest Hollywood perception is that a 12 gauge shotgun will blow out a wall or send people flying across the room. Nope.

The second is that it's impossible to miss at close range with a shotgun. Nope.

"There is no target too large nor too close that you can't miss" is an oft recited bit of wisdom, and I've experience it personally.

One typically doesn't "aim" a shotgun as such, but more instinctively points it. Sounds weird, but it actually works with practice.

There are different chokes sometimes that can be used to vary the spread, and the number and size of the shot will affect the spread, as well.

One can "attempt" to shoot some particular targets while missing others, but general spreads will tend to be more damaging in the center of the shot, then much less as one moves out from the "point" of impact. It's the geometry of the thing, primarily.

So, if I understand the post, and Jim's comment, it does seem a little weird to be able to roll to hit and roll to miss targets from the blast on an individual basis. Maybe I missed the intent on my first pass read, but if so, that's doesn't "feel" right with my experience trying to hit targets and miss others.

Additionally, unless someone has a real knack, youthful training, or very good instruction, hitting a moving target with a shotgun is not very easy, as much as it seems it should be.

There are lots of spread studies for various shot gauges and loads on the interwebs, some firearm enthusiasts have a lot of time on their hands and love to analyze these types of things with quite a bit of detail.

Ronald · 05-26-2018, 08:56 PM

I think he means choose one figure in the line of fire as the target to-hit. Any other figures, before or after that target, are rolled as to-miss. The first figure struck takes the higher damage, intended target or not.

What about having every figure in the target area make a DX roll to avoid damage?

Kirk · 05-26-2018, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald

I think he means choose one figure in the line of fire as the target to-hit. Any other figures, before or after that target, are rolled as to-miss. The first figure struck takes the higher damage, intended target or not.

What about having every figure in the target area make a DX roll to avoid damage?

Ah, if that is it then I'm good with that. I'm not sure about a DX roll to avoid being hit, though, need to think on that and how it relates to the weapon and how other missile type weapons work in TFT.

~~Jim Kane~~ · 05-26-2018, 09:25 PM

Well, I would wait for clarification and rational in-back of the rule, rather than speculate at this point-in-time. Without understanding SJ's reasoning and goal, it is very hard to offer helpful or accurate feedback.

After all, as the Game Designer, SJ ultimately informs how the standard Blunderbuss on Cidri operates. The printed rule will state the technology-level and standard-expectation of a thing for Cidri, based on the model he describes.

And he may have conceptual, mechanical, or personal reasons why he declares a thing to be "what and how" it is on Cidri; which may have very little operational resemblance to it's Earth counter-part.

So, at this point, I feel we need more info to be helpful in offering an informed opinion/feedback SJ may be able to make use of.

JK

David L Pulver · 05-27-2018, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

One thing I have learned over the past decades is that the "blunderbuss" that I was trying to represent was a comic-book version. They don't really fire a hugely spread pattern, and they don't have to kick like two mules.

New Blunderbuss draft:

The blunderbuss is a crude shotgun. It is a missile weapon, with a maximum range of 10 hexes. The roll to hit with the blunderbuss is at DX+2. All “rolls to miss” with the blunderbuss, against figures both in front of and behind the intended target, are at -2.
The blunderbuss does 1d+2 damage to the first figure it hits, and 1d-2 to everyone else it hits.
Even when you hit something with the blunderbuss, continue to make rolls to miss or hit all other figures in a straight line out to 10 hexes.

I like that better than the original version.

A minor thought this raised: Should it be harder to roll to miss a multi-hex foe like a 7-hex dragon? (Perhaps left to advanced melee, but both "unless one of you is flying, you always hit them" might be a simple tweak.)

Rick_Smith · 05-27-2018, 04:16 AM

Hi Steve, everyone.
I like this rule better than the original. I wouldn't mind if there was some spread to adjacent hexes to the final target 10 (or 9) hexes away, but that is a quibble.

A couple more things about gunpowder weapons: Ty pointed out to me that the Arquebus gives +4 DX on top of its huge damage. That should be removed. Guns at that time were notoriously inaccurate.

Given that they were so inaccurate, you might wish to say that the Missile Weapons talent does not work with them.

Warm regards, Rick.

Steve Jackson · 05-27-2018, 12:54 PM

I am reluctant to put the saving roll back in; you don't dodge missile weapons unless you are a ninja, if not a Ninja Turtle.

Certainly there is spread in any shotgun-type blast, but not more than a hex's worth, right?

Arquebus fired from stand: Hmm. No bonus, really?

Kirk · 05-27-2018, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I am reluctant to put the saving roll back in; you don't dodge missile weapons unless you are a ninja, if not a Ninja Turtle.

Certainly there is spread in any shotgun-type blast, but not more than a hex's worth, right?

Arquebus fired from stand: Hmm. No bonus, really?

Shooting from a braced position is almost always more accurate if there is time to do it *and* the ability to angle the gun to the proper aim point.

If I understand, we have dodge for missile weapons that takes some person's action, and then the rules allow some built-in dodges (like traps, etc.) that may not require an action.

Arrows travel fast, but moving, hunkering down, trying to put something between you and the shooter all could reasonably effect the chance of getting hit. Things that move faster are more difficult to "dodge".

I imagine that wizard's lightning travels pretty darn fast, and characters are allowed to dodge that, so they should be able to dodge subsonic gunpowder blasts, IMO, just not for free.

Spreads from a shotgun, or a blunderbuss style weapon, will spread based on the throttling on the muzzle, and the length of it.

My 20" 12 gauge will spread with just the muzzle width, no choke, to about a dinner plate at 7 yards. My 410 derringer with a 1" barrel and only muzzle width will do a dinner plate at about 3 yards.

With modern powder in a 12 gauge 00 buckshot shotshell there are about 8-12 pellets about 0.33 inches wide.

In this quick video, a guy with a plastic modern gun (not a fan) shows what 00 buckshot does at 25 yards. The spread is contained to just 2-3 feet diameter circle. So at 10 yards, maybe half that.

A 12 gauge muzzle is about the size of your finger, so the spread from a blunderbuss (and therefore reduced effectiveness if you do get hit) could be much greater, and its effective range much less than 25 yards.

So you may not be too far off with 10 yards for range and subsequent damage for a blunderbuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eFvIlgiZQ4

05-26-2018, 06:31 PM	#1
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Blunderbuss One thing I have learned over the past decades is that the "blunderbuss" that I was trying to represent was a comic-book version. They don't really fire a hugely spread pattern, and they don't have to kick like two mules. New Blunderbuss draft: The blunderbuss is a crude shotgun. It is a missile weapon, with a maximum range of 10 hexes. The roll to hit with the blunderbuss is at DX+2. All “rolls to miss” with the blunderbuss, against figures both in front of and behind the intended target, are at -2. The blunderbuss does 1d+2 damage to the first figure it hits, and 1d-2 to everyone else it hits. Even when you hit something with the blunderbuss, continue to make rolls to miss or hit all other figures in a straight line out to 10 hexes.

05-26-2018, 08:13 PM	#3
Kirk Join Date: Feb 2018	Re: Blunderbuss I think we always took the blunderbuss as a cartoonish joke, like Wrestling (for Greeks only) ;). I shoot Cowboy Action and grew up shooting, and have some experience with shotguns, shooting a double-barreled one about once or twice a month 30 plus times. I also have a 410 derringer with a 1 inch barrel. Targets vary, some for knockdown, some that move, some that pop up and "fly". The biggest Hollywood perception is that a 12 gauge shotgun will blow out a wall or send people flying across the room. Nope. The second is that it's impossible to miss at close range with a shotgun. Nope. "There is no target too large nor too close that you can't miss" is an oft recited bit of wisdom, and I've experience it personally. One typically doesn't "aim" a shotgun as such, but more instinctively points it. Sounds weird, but it actually works with practice. There are different chokes sometimes that can be used to vary the spread, and the number and size of the shot will affect the spread, as well. One can "attempt" to shoot some particular targets while missing others, but general spreads will tend to be more damaging in the center of the shot, then much less as one moves out from the "point" of impact. It's the geometry of the thing, primarily. So, if I understand the post, and Jim's comment, it does seem a little weird to be able to roll to hit and roll to miss targets from the blast on an individual basis. Maybe I missed the intent on my first pass read, but if so, that's doesn't "feel" right with my experience trying to hit targets and miss others. Additionally, unless someone has a real knack, youthful training, or very good instruction, hitting a moving target with a shotgun is not very easy, as much as it seems it should be. There are lots of spread studies for various shot gauges and loads on the interwebs, some firearm enthusiasts have a lot of time on their hands and love to analyze these types of things with quite a bit of detail.

05-26-2018, 08:56 PM	#4
Ronald Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Blunderbuss I think he means choose one figure in the line of fire as the target to-hit. Any other figures, before or after that target, are rolled as to-miss. The first figure struck takes the higher damage, intended target or not. What about having every figure in the target area make a DX roll to avoid damage?

05-26-2018, 09:25 PM	#6
~~Jim Kane~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: Blunderbuss Well, I would wait for clarification and rational in-back of the rule, rather than speculate at this point-in-time. Without understanding SJ's reasoning and goal, it is very hard to offer helpful or accurate feedback. After all, as the Game Designer, SJ ultimately informs how the standard Blunderbuss on Cidri operates. The printed rule will state the technology-level and standard-expectation of a thing for Cidri, based on the model he describes. And he may have conceptual, mechanical, or personal reasons why he declares a thing to be "what and how" it is on Cidri; which may have very little operational resemblance to it's Earth counter-part. So, at this point, I feel we need more info to be helpful in offering an informed opinion/feedback SJ may be able to make use of. JK Last edited by Jim Kane; 05-27-2018 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Clarity

05-27-2018, 04:16 AM	#8
Rick_Smith Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Coquitlam B.C.	Rick's Thoughts on Gunpowder weapons Hi Steve, everyone. I like this rule better than the original. I wouldn't mind if there was some spread to adjacent hexes to the final target 10 (or 9) hexes away, but that is a quibble. A couple more things about gunpowder weapons: Ty pointed out to me that the Arquebus gives +4 DX on top of its huge damage. That should be removed. Guns at that time were notoriously inaccurate. Given that they were so inaccurate, you might wish to say that the Missile Weapons talent does not work with them. Warm regards, Rick.

05-27-2018, 12:54 PM	#9
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: Blunderbuss I am reluctant to put the saving roll back in; you don't dodge missile weapons unless you are a ninja, if not a Ninja Turtle. Certainly there is spread in any shotgun-type blast, but not more than a hex's worth, right? Arquebus fired from stand: Hmm. No bonus, really?