What does main-gauche buy me?

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by lambda

Hmm, maybe that's what I missed. I didn't see any limits on the number of parries per weapon. That would make it useful, though in more limited circumstances (defending against multiple enemies or all-out attacks).

You may, by the rules dodge against all attacks that come your way. 50,000 attacks can meet 50,000 dodges. Other defenses generally are once per turn. You can All out Defense for a second one but otherwise you need an advantage that will allow you to do so.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by lambda

Also, I'm wondering about what people have mentioned about using Main-Gauche offensively. Icelander and Kromm have mentioned using Main-Gauche offensively, but under "Main-Gauche" it says "To wield a knife as a primary weapon, use Knife skill". So, if I want to be able to just use the Knife alone as a weapon, would Main-Gauche help at all (other than for defaulting Knife), or would I need Knife, too? And if I'm using a sword and a knife, and want to do a dual-weapon attack, would I use my Knife skill or Main-Gauche skill for the knife side of the attack?

Kromm may correct me, but here's the way I've always interpreted it. If you put the main-gauche (weapon) in your right hand, then the relevant skill is Knife, with all the rules of using the main-gauche (weapon) as a knife (fewer parries, -1 to parry, etc.). The Main-Gauche skill only applies if the main-gauche (weapon) is in your off hand (usually the left).

If you don't have the Knife skill, then you use your Main-Gauche skill default in place of Knife to use your main-gauche (weapon) as a knife (weapon).

That is, off-hand: Main-Gauche skill and relevent rules
dominant hand: Knife skill and all of those relevant rules (including any default from Main-Gauche).

Now, the interesting question is, what happens if a right-handed fencer picks up a main-gauche in their right hand, and a rapier in their left?

[Dalillama]

Personally, I'd give him off-hand penalties for both weapons, but otherwise use the Main-Gauche rules unchanged. The other option I see would be to make him use his Knife default for his dagger, and Fencing with off-hand penalties for his sword, which is a lot harsher. On a side note, -4 for the off hand strikes me as a bit harsh, from my own fencing experiences. I'm worse with my left, but not that much worse, I don't think.

[Dejnov]

Actually I think you did your parry chart a bit wrong.

working from your example, I have a character with saber ws 12, and knife ws 12, vs. a saber ws 12 and main gauche ws 12 character.

Saber, Knife wielder
First parry (saber): 9
(with retreat): 12
First parry (knife): 6 (-1 for parry with knife, -2 for off hand)
(with retreat): 7 (+1 only b/c not a fencing weapon)
Second parry (saber): 7
Second parry (knife): 2 (-4 b/c not a fencing weapon)

Saber, Main Gauche wielder
First parry (saber): 9
(with retreat): 12
First parry (main-gauche): 9
(with retreat): 12
Second parry (saber):7
Second parry (main-gauche): 7

So the saber/knife wielder has successive parries of 9, 7, 6, 2 while the saber/main-gauche wielder has successive parries of 9, 9, 7, 7


Looks a lot better for just 4 points, eh?

Dejnov.

[Blood Legend]

Main Gauche is still a main gauche, so it still benefits from being a fencing weapon. The fact that you're holding it in your right hand doesn't change what it is or the skill you use. It simply doesn't suffer from off-hand penalties because it is specifically trained for your off-hand. It's meant to be there as a parrying tool.

And when we move that little fencing knife from the left hand to the right, we don't get a +4 to skill suddenly, because it wasn't trained in the right hand, but there are no penalties for off-hand use.

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by Kromm

But that's as it should be. Generally, the main-gauche is compared to the buckler, cloak, and other parrying weapons. It's only rarely considered a useful part of offense. If what you want is lots of offense, do what some real rapierists did and carry two rapiers instead. Just be careful in close combat. Also, be rich . . . a rapier isn't cheap like a main-gauche is.

Speaking as an SCA fencer, I LOVE using my main-gauche as an offensive weapon. I generally like to use it against opponents that over commit themselves (which, actually, even some of the more skilled fencers tend to do, although at a more uncommon pace). I generally use my rapier to sweep my opponent's rapier away, and then step close to my opponent, stabbing or cutting him with the dagger (if cutting, I almost always end up doing a called shot to the neck, and hit a surprising number of times...). Even if I fail the attack with the dagger, the opponent has to pull out to even be able to use his own rapier; I've had fun harassing opponents that don't have quite as much skill with their daggers!

[Collective_Restraint]

Originally Posted by Dejnov

Actually I think you did your parry chart a bit wrong.

working from your example, I have a character with saber ws 12, and knife ws 12, vs. a saber ws 12 and main gauche ws 12 character.

Saber, Knife wielder
First parry (saber): 9
(with retreat): 12
First parry (knife): 6 (-1 for parry with knife, -2 for off hand)
(with retreat): 7 (+1 only b/c not a fencing weapon)
Second parry (saber): 7
Second parry (knife): 2 (-4 b/c not a fencing weapon)

Saber, Main Gauche wielder
First parry (saber): 9
(with retreat): 12
First parry (main-gauche): 9
(with retreat): 12
Second parry (saber):7
Second parry (main-gauche): 7

So the saber/knife wielder has successive parries of 9, 7, 6, 2 while the saber/main-gauche wielder has successive parries of 9, 9, 7, 7


Looks a lot better for just 4 points, eh?

Dejnov.

Ummm, can't you retreat only once per turn?

[Lonewulf]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

Ummm, can't you retreat only once per turn?

As a GM, I'd rule that a retreat from foes in front of you would apply to all parries; considering that you're still in motion for them all, and from personal experience of being able to do some fancy shmancy parrying while retreating and against multiple foes.

(Heck, even took one guy out while THREE were chasing me down to kill me...)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

Ummm, can't you retreat only once per turn?

Yes, but a retreat counts on any number of defenses against the person from whom you're retreating; see the end of the third paragraph under Retreat (p. B377). If you have fencing weapons and one foe who likes to attack a lot, then you might well get the +3 for retreating on two or more parries. You might try your Rapier parry at +3, then your Main-Gauche parry at +3, then a second Rapier parry at -2 (second parry) +3 (retreat) = +1, then a second Main-Gauche parry also at +1, etc.

Against two or more foes, you're more limited. Your best bet then is to run away far enough that the differences between their Move scores, chosen routes, and maneuvers spread them out a little, and then engage the nearest guy only. AFAIK, run, disperse, engage, break off, run, disperse, engage, ad infinitum is the recommended way for dealing with multiple foes in real life, too.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Against two or more foes, you're more limited. Your best bet then is to run away far enough that the differences between their Move scores, chosen routes, and maneuvers spread them out a little, and then engage the nearest guy only. AFAIK, run, disperse, engage, break off, run, disperse, engage, ad infinitum is the recommended way for dealing with multiple foes in real life, too.

D@mn straight. Multiple foes with any real combat training should know better though.