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Old 10-01-2018, 09:22 AM   #71
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Here's a passage from ITL that should directly answer the question:

p. 17 (upper right-hand corner)
"For instance, a hero with an IQ of
14 might start with two languages beside her own (total cost
2), one spell (cost 3) and several talents (total cost 9), for a
grand total of 14. To learn more spells or talents, she must
earn and spend XP."

* bold emphasis mine

EDIT
Nevermind on this example. I see that it still allows for the "loop-hole" interpretation, "To learn more spells or talents, she must earn and spend XP (on IQ or the spells or talents themselves)."

I still don't see how you guys would think the parenthetical expression I added is the intent. Why would SJG revise/reprint rules and assume "newcomers" were familiar enough with the old rules to assume you could still get talents/spells simply by increasing IQ?

This assumption/question you guys are posing is basically the same as asking "If I spend XP to increase IQ, do I get 500XP to spend on spells/talents?"

Last edited by platimus; 10-01-2018 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 10-01-2018, 09:58 AM   #72
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Nevermind on this example. I see that it still allows for the "loop-hole" interpretation, "To learn more spells or talents, she must earn and spend XP (on IQ or the spells or talents themselves)."

I still don't see how you guys would think the parenthetical expression I added is the intent. Why would SJG revise/reprint rules and assume "newcomers" were familiar enough with the old rules to assume you could still get talents/spells simply by increasing IQ?

This assumption/question you guys are posing is basically the same as asking "If I spend XP to increase IQ, do I get 500XP to spend on spells/talents?"
I think the potential for confusion (even for newbies) is simply the precedent established during character creation. They will ask, why should a character use IQ differently after character creation?
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:01 AM   #73
Shadekeep
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
This assumption/question you guys are posing is basically the same as asking "If I spend XP to increase IQ, do I get 500XP to spend on spells/talents?"
If that is the gist of the question, then I hope the official answer is "yes". Doesn't sound like it at the moment, but would be nice if it turned out to be so.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:51 AM   #74
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

I have to say I'm not a fan. I don't particularly like character advancement systems where it matters what order you do things in. And the new system definitely incentivizes buying as much of your eventual IQ as you can manage off the start.
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Old 10-02-2018, 04:18 AM   #75
Jack O'All Trades
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

During character creation, there is a derived stat called Talent Points - it is equal to IQ and is used to buy talents (which have costs in TP).

After character creation, it is clear that we can spend XP directly on Talent Points.

I have two issues with some of the proposed interpretations of the rules:*

1) Any solution that involves multiplying IQ by 500 to get a derived Experience_talents (where the game normally assumes there is only one pool, Experience), which are then divided by 500 when paying for Talents, is not appreciably elegant compared to just recognizing that Talent Points are stat/pool, and that it costs 500 XP to add one Talent Point (or it costs having +1 IQ, at least during character creation). Unfortunately if you don't recognize Talent Points, then you end up forcing players to spend them all at character creation. They can't save up.

2) In trying to fix the Conan the Librarian problem, wherein "dumb" heroes needed to become hyper intelligent to get all of their abilities, we instead have an Aragorn the Apprentice** problem, which is far worse. Regardless of saving unspent Talent Points from character creation, if it costs 500 XP for every talent point after the 32pt character creation, then going from being a starting Ranger-type character who does not know how to swim to knowing how to swim requires the character to spend as much XP as it takes for him to develop into a fearsome hero in combat. And given the incentive structure established in the XP cost scale for attribute points, that means it is once our character reaches Aragorn-ish combat abilities that they suddenly start learning some basic talents that the character really should've been able to figure out earlier. The 'old' system (it really could work in tandem with the new system, there is no reason Talent Points shouldn't be granted by IQ increases from a balance perspective) at least allowed that some early, cheap character development could go towards rounding out Talents needed to fit the character type.

None of this is to say that allowing IQ increase as one way to increase TP is perfect, particularly when one starts thinking about how NPC townsfolk are learning talents for their day-to-day lives if they aren't getting XP or stats much above 30, but 500XP or +1 IQ -> +1TP is at least internally consistent for PCs, creates a more natural character progression/increases workable options for that character progression, removes any need for workarounds for 'left over' Talent Points, and does nothing to detract from the advantages of making Talent Points eventually cheaper than raising attributes. I haven't really seen an argument for why not allowing IQ increases to increase TP would be preferable, except that it feels arbitrary that increasing IQ suddenly adds a Talent Point. But isn't it already arbitrary that IQ suddenly increases? Or that when you hit some arbitrary quantity of 'experience' that you get a possibly unrelated Talent? Or to put it another way, why are the XP spent to raise IQ/TP more arbitrary or sudden than the XP spent to raise TP? Issues with that are better resolved through the GM/having rules for the learning process as attempted in the old ITL.

*Thankfully, I think it is clear that the rules are still being heavily edited for clarity. As written it seems that only someone who followed the forum half a year ago would have much of a guess as to what happens to Talent Point's relationship to IQ after character creation, and I'm not really convinced one way or another as to what the intention of the rules is now, let alone at printing.

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Old 10-02-2018, 08:10 AM   #76
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

When would I roll against my Knowledge stat to show that my character is able to apply the sum of all his skills and life Experience to a test of Wisdom?
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Last edited by hcobb; 10-02-2018 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 10-02-2018, 04:08 PM   #77
RobW
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades View Post
The 'old' system (it really could work in tandem with the new system, there is no reason Talent Points shouldn't be granted by IQ increases from a balance perspective) at least allowed that some early, cheap character development could go towards rounding out Talents needed to fit the character type.
What doesn't work from the old system is the "forgetting" talents. This was always very kludgy, and forgetting is completely unnecessary in the new system. All the forgetting rules have been eliminated and I remember SJ saying 'good riddance'.

That said, the way IQ points related to talents in the old system worked perfectly as far as I'm concerned. I agree this aspect of the old system can live perfectly well with the new one.
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Old 10-02-2018, 04:12 PM   #78
Chris Goodwin
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

IQ ends up being the only thing that you don't get the full benefit for if you buy it with XP after character creation. ST and DX both work exactly the same regardless of when you buy them. It would seem to be that an XP cost break is warranted for IQ, post-creation.

(If this was hashed out in the earlier discussion I apologize. My attention was elsewhere at the time, and I know that my input has no bearing on the process now.)
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:44 PM   #79
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Would anyone have a problem with the following?

New (human) characters start with ST8, DX8, IQ8 and 8 to distribute. All new characters get 10 points of talents/spells. After creation, pay 500, 1000, 1500XP to learn new talents/spells. Talents triple for Wizards and Spells double for Heroes.

(There's no link whatsoever between talents/spells known and IQ...other than requirements)
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:10 PM   #80
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

You know guys, it's starting to feel like 'the cure is worse than the disease'. I get that IQ bloat could be an issue in the old system, but there also seems to be some real issues w/ the unintended consequences of using XP to buy talents directly.

Just a thought.
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