01-09-2018, 07:40 PM | #11 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
I think I'm bordering on one of those massive miscommunications with you, sir_pudding. I will try and clarify where I can; if it doesn't work, or if you understood all of what I said and it is only I who am confused, my apologies.
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You know your players; I don't. What I can tell you from my own experience, back in 3e, it was a lot easier for us when we started including the Martial Arts Record Sheet (GURPS Martial Arts, Second Edition p.157) as part of one's character sheet, at least for characters focused on such fighting. Yes, yes, that is from a supplement, but Techniques weren't actually part of the Basic Set (Third Edition, Revised); you needed a supplement to know of them. This gave you room not only for Techniques you had studied, but even some of the ones you might like to use by Default, instead of having to look them up on the fly or memorize them. I guess I'm saying... if your players are wanting a more detailed game, even if 4e has abandoned such a sheet, you might want to bring it back. Looks scarier, but makes things easier in the long run. Like creating a separate "Grimoire" sheet for a Mage, listing out his Spells and any relevant notes from them, instead of trying to cram them all into the "Skills" section. :) I don't want to bury any points, so I'm going to risk double-posting, to break up the first third of what you said from the last two-thirds.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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01-09-2018, 07:40 PM | #12 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
Hate to quote myself, but it is needed for this next exchange to make sense. Here is what I said, with the text you chose to quote underlined:
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While the rules for buying Skills aren't much different, the rules for buying Martial Arts Styles has dramatically changed. I know, because I made a fool of myself years ago arguing in a thread where I assumed things worked mostly the same between edition. ^^' The short version is that there were rules about how you spent points on a Style, with minimum investment requirements like at least 1 CP in Primary Skills and 0.5 CP in Techniques. We don't have Skills or Techniques that cost half a CP anymore. Advancing in your style required investing a certain amount in the appropriate Techniques and Skills. For example, Secondary and Optional Skills couldn't exceed Primary Skills, and needing to spend 2 CP on each of a Style's Techniques before you could improve any of your Primary Skills to above Skill 15. So... it didn't really matter if it wasn't cost effective, you had to buy the Techniques to actually have the style. The pricing structure was only a little different, but it really mattered; Average Techniques cost 0.5 CP for Default+1, 1 CP for Default+2, 2 CP for Default+3, 4 for Default+4, and 2 more CP per further +1. Hard Techniques were 1 CP for Default+1, 2 for Default+2, and (again) 2 CP more per additional +1. Subtle, but significant; even if we aren't using the rigid rules for buying a Style, you have 3.5 CP to play around with for Default+1 level Techniques, which could buy up to seven Average Techniques, or three Hard and one Average. Getting Default+2 for 1 CP into an Average Technique means the specialization may remain cost effective, even with 4 CP invested into just two Techniques. Yes, I am aware that Fourth Edition makes buying larger bonuses less expensive. Quote:
Some of us are fond of fiction that are not realistic and where fighters, especially those of note, are going to have at least a few developed Techniques. I am not disputing what is realistic; just expressing my concern over how this change is so dramatic compared to Third Edition, and how it affects some character concepts. Throw in some of the other changes since then (like Deceptive Attack) and it might be great for realistic, even verisimilitudinous fighters, but what about the rest?
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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01-09-2018, 08:38 PM | #13 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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It seems to me that if you are building a combatant, you can efficiently take one Hard technique *for each main skill* in their style. So that might plausibly get you a character with two or three Hard techniques. On the other hand, if you're looking at a single skill, like say Smallsword, it would only be efficient to buy up one technique. But I have the impression that if you're imitating literary or cinematic source material, having one signature technique is pretty common. If you're good at multiple techniques you're probably good all around, and that's represented by buying up the skill. I'd also note that in 4/e there is NO style that requires you to buy any technique to take the style perk, or call yourself a practitioner of the style.
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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01-09-2018, 11:18 PM | #14 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
My house rule for making Techniques worthwhile is to treat them like perks: for one point, you get to use the Technique at its maximum instead of its minimum (or, if it doesn't have a maximum, you can use it at three levels above the base skill). I adapted this from the way the Style! Wildcard Skills handle Style Techniques.
The other approach I've been tempted to use is to bring back fractional points — in particular, divide the cost of Techniques by five. The motivation behind this approach actually comes from Familiarities: it takes 25× as long to earn a skill point as it does to acquire a Familiarity. That means that if Techniques cost a fifth of a point per +1, they'd be sitting exactly between Skills and Familiarities. |
01-10-2018, 12:02 AM | #15 |
Untagged
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
I'd think that realistically once you improve enough techniques you have literally increased your ability with the base Skill. Certainly enough for gaming purposes.
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Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check. |
01-10-2018, 12:49 AM | #16 | ||||||||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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a) There's no rule that says you have to make an optimized character. If wasting points does bother you, well then don't do this. b) You've spent points on individually improving almost every aspect of grappling available in the Basic Set except the core tasks of grappling, takedowns and throws. What does this actually represent? You somehow trained very specifically in all of these Judo or Wrestling moves without learning how to do the core tasks better at the same time? Quote:
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If instead you ignored the advice to focus on only a couple of techniques and put points in Counterattack (Karate); Elbow Strike; Jam; Kicking; Knee Strike; Leg Grapple (DX); Push Kick; Spinning Kick; Spinning Punch; Sweep (Karate); Targeted Attack (Karate Kick/Leg and Uppercut, at low levels do you really look more like a generalist than the guy who just has 12 points in Karate more than you? His defaults in many of these are going to as good, or nearly as good as yours, and he is much better at punching and parrying then you are. So which character is a better general kickboxer? Note that Counterattack in particular is actually a waste of points in this case, because it is a technique that is mostly only worth it if you max it out. Quote:
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Well I am glad that changed because it doesn't really make much sense. You can't logically train up all the parts of a thing individually without having actually just trained in the thing as a whole. Quote:
a) There's no rule that says you can't "waste" points if you want to (or feel you need to). b) How can you tell the difference between a fictional fighter who has mastered many techniques of a style by mastering their style, and a fictional fighter who has mastered a style by mastering all its techniques? Or to put it a different way, can you give an example of the sort of fighter you are thinking of that would need to be represented in GURPS by putting points in a bunch of techniques of a skill rather than in the skill itself? Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-10-2018 at 12:55 AM. |
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01-10-2018, 05:12 AM | #17 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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either way it's not much of boost to as it only work with fients. *this can get a bit complicated when people start feinting an "acrobatic AoA Long at 7 hex range" because in theory they could launch themselves 7 hexes, so I take a view at the time. Quote:
If anything in the context of technique costs you can look at 4pts for improving every technique available to you as well as your basic strikes and defence is pretty damn cheap! So why bother to make techniques cheaper, since thay are going to have to be massively cheaper to compete with that! Last edited by Tomsdad; 01-10-2018 at 06:41 AM. |
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01-10-2018, 10:06 AM | #18 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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I'm just picking numbers half at random, half from what I remember seeing in the [Basic] example (don't have my books with me), but for those wondering why anyone would want to invest heavily in Techniques without just raising the underlying Skill instead - and that includes my own concerns - there we go.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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01-10-2018, 10:07 AM | #19 | |
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Land of the Beer, Home of the Dirndls
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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What I don't like about a lot of the modifications is that they single out combat skills a bit, but who wants to make Techniques for all the skills? Although, if you constrain it to physical skills, you might get back to the 3E rules that mental skills are easier to increase... Or just treat most specialities as Techniques, so your Einstein-wannabe has Physics-12 and Astronomy +2, Quantum Physics+0 (raised from its lower default). Another possibility I looked at was the way HERO did it: You've got your Skill Maxima, after which it's either impossible or just more expensive to raise your skills (HERO doubled costs). |
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01-10-2018, 10:15 AM | #20 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: Making Techniques Worthwhile
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The Path of Cunning. Indexes: DFRPG Characters, Advantage of the Week, Disadvantage of the Week, Skill of the Week, Techniques. |
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