Challenging Tanks Without Slaughtering Squishies

[Dr. Beckenstein]

Send in a few heavy fighters in heavy armour with magic resistance 5. Your tank has to deal with them before they can hit Mr. Wimpy-Mage.

And always remember Shadworun's rule #1: Kill the Mage first.

To the npc, who is a bigger threat - Sir Boilershirt with his sword or the wizard who can throw fireballs?

Let the mage's player find out that with great power comes a great bulls eye.

:-)

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by Humabout

Explosive damage is considered Large Area injury and uses the average of torso DR and the lowest DR, which at low TLs is pretty much always 0 for the eyes.

I used to think this as well, however Kromm has indicated that only "major" hit locations should count when calculating "lowest DR", not sub-locations like Eyes. So a tank PC would get to use Face DR against Large Area Injury.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...4&postcount=33

[YankeeGamer]

When I'm running a game, different situations give differnt people a chance to shine. The big fight scene is the tank's high point--make him work for it, but don't negate his advantages very often. Formal dinners turning into utter carnage are, however, fun on occasion.

Depending on how much of a tank, a heavy crossbow can be a worry.

Sometimes, the best option for bandits faces with a tank is to RUN AWAY! If they know the tank and company will come after them, time to rig some anti tank options.

[starslayer]

I don't see it mentioned anywhere yet:

Let him be an invincible tank and god of combat.

Presumably all the PCs were built on similar numbers of points, and presumably mr 'tank god of combat' has most of his/her points tied up in being 'tank god of combat' (and likely a lot of disadvantages as well if the rest of the party lags significantly behind).

So the player has identified 'I want to be tank god of combat, but have all these limitations in other situations'.

Awesome- throw some combat at the group (no more than one battle per session) and let tank god of combat rule (at least where he can close to melee range before its over; If combat 'starts' at 150 yards out wizards and archers tend to have completely destroyed the opposition before they even get to melee range.

Then throw out a difficult puzzle that requires occult and thaumaturgy to solve (hey wizard!, sorry mr IQ 8 indestructible tank, you get to sit in the corner on this one)

Then throw a situation where stealth is paramount (hey scout, possibly buffed by wizard).

Then throw out a situation where talking and schmoozing is important (scout, scholar, sage, even the wizard with high initial IQ).

Throw out a classical 'get past this guard' task- but be sure it is WELL identified that killing the guard is not an option. Being a one hit kill combat god does not help here, but stealth, deception spells, fast talk, research and other skills can be perfect.

Even in combat diffuse foes can be good

Don't focus on DISabling the combat god, focus on ENabling the rest of the party by creating challenges which the combat god is not built to deal with.

Also: Throw out the stuff that's on the combat god's disadvantages, regularly. If the combat god has -80 in sundry disadvantages AT LEAST one of them should come up every SCENE, not even every session.

Note: I'm assuming that our combat god is 'IQ: 8 /w unfazeable and indomitable, max disadvantages focused on social situations and reaction penalties, high ST, double-layered armour, high striking ST does 6d6+14 cutting damage twice per turn' sort of deal. If this is not the case please provide additional details.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

I'm looking for ideas for fights that will be a challenge for the warrior, without autoatically killing the mage.

Ah, I remember back in the days when it was melee warriors instead of wizards who threatened to overshadow the other characters . . .

I once asked this exact same question in what seems like so long ago.

It's not that the melee warrior is too powerful. It's that the mage is too weak. If the wizard is in melee and can't handle it, that's usually his fault—either his tactics or his choice of spells is flawed.

In my Dungeon Fantasy games (though 150/-75/-5 generic high fantasy is applicable too), this would never be a problem. Oh my God, you would never say, "Poor little mage is too weak to handle the dungeon." You mean, the mage who can cast about five different spells to negate or bypass nearly any encounter or situation? The mage who can levitate/fly and neutralize opponents en masse from afar? The mage who can control minds? The mage who can't be touched by metal and reflects all missiles back to the sender?

This is only an issue when the GM and players don't know enough about Magic, the book, to use it effectively, or if there's simply not enough points to make an adventuring, dungeon-delving battle wizard.

Once you have a player who really knows Magic, the question becomes, "How do I create a challenge the wizard doesn't roll?"

If the mage is throwing missile spells to cause damage in combat, it's often a pretty good sign that the player doesn't know the book. I wrote a fundamental beginner's guide a few years ago here. Never did get around to writing the second part, which was mainly about Delay and Maintain and other spell combinations.

Otherwise, Refplace answered your question directly in post #3 above. I'll expand with common practical examples from my game.

If you design most or all encounters that are well suited to be handled by melee, then yeah, by definition, the melee warrior is going to handle them well. Right off the top of my head without looking at books, here's a list of just a small selection of common combat situations in my game that melee can't thwart, but mages can.

• Put a wall up with archers on top or a moat or pit between them. Now how well does the melee warrior do? The mage has Missile Shield, Reflect, Levitate, and Fly, as well as Concussion.
  
• The opponent is diffuse with a lot of HP. Where's your damage now, melee warrior? The mage has Concussion or other explosive missile spells as well as the Psychic Guidance perk. He can also stop them with Glue or other area spells, not to mention resisted spells that will stun it. Cast Glue + Fire + Fast Fire and walk away.
  
• The opponent can fly. Where you at, melee tank? This is more for the archer of the group, but the wizard can buff the fighter with Fly (and Great Haste) rather than rely on spells like Concussion to deal direct damage. Or, he can really put a damper on the flier with Regular spells resisted by either IQ or HT depending on the creature.
  
• The opponent has Reach 3-ish, tons of HP and DR (and maybe Injury Tolerance!), does 10d-ish damage, and has IQ 8-ish. Jump right in there, melee warrior! Again, regular spells resisted by IQ. Death Vision is auto-stun and is good to have at level 20 for a one-turn cast. Just by casting Death Vision (which isn't a resisted spell), the monster is likely utterly defeated. Perhaps it can't be stunned that way. Okay, resort to SOP: control the battle field with Force Dome and Blackout and then buff your stupid expendable sidekick the tank with Great Haste and Dark Vision. Cast Fumble and other blocking spells into the melee in your meat shield's defense. Another day, another dollar.

There are tons of other common situations where mages excel and melee flops.

Your trouble is, the mage can't handle those above situations because while the melee fighter is well optimized, the mage isn't.

[hal]

As always, a lot depends on the story arc involved, which includes the capabilities of the PLAYERS themselves and the characters they play in the game. In one dungeon, I had a really long straight stone staircase in which the trap trigger was weight based midway down the stairs. At the top of the stairs was a multi-ton stone block designed to not only squish the prey caught in the trap, but also destroy the stone steps themselves as the block fell from the ceiling and as it picked up speed going downwards, crushed everything in its way.

That trap forced the player characters at the front of the party to try and figure out why they were feeling hefty THUMPS through their feet while on the stone staircase, realize the screams behind them (ie further back up the stairs) indicates they were in a trap, and run for their lives downwards. I took out 80% of the NPC hirelings they brought with them AND made it so they couldn't return back out that way. The player characters barely survived that trap...
Same dungeon - had a ramp with ice magically appearing on it when someone stepped in the wrong spot (needed magery to see the tiles were MAGIC items). There, dexterity saves the day, not armor.

Then there was the gemstone gas plug. Pry it out of its mount, and the lethal gas could escape. Got some victims with that one!

But my favorite trap? The party was there to rescue an imprisoned player character. The party thought they found the prisoner in what appeared to be a crypt, with a crown (MAGIC item) meant to be a suspended animation crown. The character was in full armor, but it wasn't the character the party was sent to rescue. It was a troll with an enchanted illusion disguise to make it look like the person the party wanted to rescue.

One of the most memorable scenes from that fight that still remains in my mind? The "tank" fending off the murderous attacks of the troll without the party aware they were battling a troll, and the player who owned the character being rescued saying "Hal, my character wouldn't attack those who are rescuing him!" and suddenly attacking the " tank" of the party who was fending off the troll and had finally said "enough of this <expletive deleted>" and stopped trying to knock out the attacking troll. The troll was seemingly impervious to being knocked out, and the tank had to battle the troll while being grappled by a mage on his back. Was funny as all hell!

There were more nasty traps, including a plane of stone balances over a long drop into a lava flow below. At one end, a heavy stone crypt with the rescuee trapped in a magical slumber, and at the other end, lots and lots of treasure. The party has to climb carefully down a really thick cable that supported the fulcrum of the stone base/floor upon which the treasure at one end rested, and the character the party was rescuing lay at to opposite end. Then the party has to send one guy towards the treasure and one towards the sleeping victim they came to rescue. The owning player of the sleeping PC was using a backup character, and naturally went to rescue his sleeping character. The npc who went to get the treasure? He grabbed what he wanted and teleported out. That resulted in the remaining character by the crypt to leap off into the lava below to keep the balanced fulcrum from tipping and dumping the imprisoned pc into the lava. The tank? He survived along with one other survivor and left another way out.

[Greg 1]

Thanks for all the awesome ideas, folks! Very helpful.

By the way, the playstyle is absoulute softball. The players barely know their way around GURPS or dungeon-delving. Character death, or even the death of good NPC friends, is off the table!

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

Thanks for all the awesome ideas, folks! Very helpful.

By the way, the playstyle is absoulute softball. The players barely know their way around GURPS or dungeon-delving. Character death, or even the death of good NPC friends, is off the table!

Ah well in that case don't worry about sweating too much over encounter balance and finely crafted challenge. Just let them be awesome.

In fact if you trying to get them to get more knowledgeable about the system, introduce new way for them to be awesome everyone once in a while by creating a encounter around it. E.g. a specific combat tactic for the tank, a specific spell or magic option for the mage. (you're not going to destroy them if they don't get it exactly right after all)

[Kromm]

Don't overlook how disparities play out in actual combined-arms situations: Nobody wastes antitank assets on infantry when there's an actual tank there to deal with. Minefields mix antipersonnel and anti-armor mines; the first might be triggered by tanks but can't affect them, while the second could certainly kill personnel but infantry won't trigger them. Nobody points anti-air weaponry at enemy troops when those troops are supported by ground-attack aircraft that are blasting your own troops. Artillery usually stays protected in the rear, where only opposing artillery and aircraft can deal with it. And so on.

So you have this tank. Send the enemy tank after him, or at least an "antitank" warrior who does big damage. Don't hurl those resources at a wizard who might cast Charm and send your champion right back in your face. But on the other hand, if the enemy has its own magic-workers, they are likely to duel the wizard, because they're better cut out for it.

Mismatches might occur, but they should have realistic consequences: Yay, the enemy tank-killer smacked the wizard . . . meanwhile, the tank on the wizard's side got to roam unopposed among the tank-killer's wimpier allies, who are now all dead. Okay, the enemy wizards unleashed magical hell to stop the tank . . . which gave the tank's wizard friend a grace period to back off and cast a huge Area spell the rival wizards have no energy left to dispel.

Setting aside rock-paper-scissors, there's also the fact that suitable matches are dramatic. That's why in raging, full-cast melees in films, the Big Guy goes after the rival Big Guy, the Sneaky Guy goes after the opposing Sneaky Guy, and so on. If mismatches occur, it's either a one-on-one fight where the mismatch is the drama or a situation where some brilliant tactician has come up with an unorthodox alternative. And in the latter case, that's actually Tactical Guy matching wits with the other side's Tactical Guy, which is also dramatic and perhaps even realistic.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Don't overlook how disparities play out in actual combined-arms situations: Nobody wastes antitank assets on infantry when there's an actual tank there to deal with.

Of course, the reason you don't use them is because you have limited ammunition and a higher priority target. Given weapons with no meaningful ammunition limits (any ST-based melee weapons) you're just going to hit the target with the best ratio of "firepower removed from field by killing it" vs "number of hits required to kill it". If the mage is actually dangerous, it may make sense to use grotesque overkill on him.

Enemy mages are actually a pretty good option for challenging both tanks and squishies. If I have, say, fireball, explosive fireball, and magery 3, I might just use a single turn of building up a regular fireball (3d damage; costs me 2 fp) to try and snipe the mage, whereas for the tank I probably spend 2 turns building a 6d explosive fireball (costs me 11 fp) and drop it at his feet.