[ACTION] Dive in Shadows during Combat

[Onkl]

Hi guys

Once more, I feel pretty stupid because I don't understand a rule from Action 2: Exploits. On Page 37 under Sneaky Fighting, paragraph Disappearing it says that there is a basic -10 to go into stealth during combat.

What does the "basic" part of this sentence imply?

Are there any modifiers that would allow this "basic modifier" to be altered?

Would bad lighting give a bonus to this basic -10?

Would good lighting give a further penalty, lowering it even beyond -10?

Thanks for reading!

Cheers

Onkl

[gilbertocarlos]

Low light can give a bonus, but open terrain gives -10, just look on the stealth skill.

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Low light can give a bonus, but open terrain gives -10, just look on the stealth skill.

Huh? Where do you get your -10 from?

Originally Posted by B222

A successful roll lets you conceal yourself anywhere except in a totally bare room..

And under Modifiers it says

Originally Posted by B222

-5 to hide in an area without "natural" hiding places..

So, according to B222 you can't even try to hide in a bare room. So, the -10 is from the first quote? Or what... I'm totally confused now.

The question came up in a game I GM'ed recently. One of my players used a smoke nageteppo and wanted to dive in shadows afterwards. I said:"Ok, take a move maneuver and roll vs. Stealth-10 at the end of your turn" which he contested, because in his opinion the smoke from the Nageteppo should provide him with a bonus to this action. In my mind this doesn't make sense, although the nageteppo helps him not getting noticed by observers with vision, it does not help him make his stealth-10 roll, because this action is depending on his ability to making the stealth-10 roll and not on bystanders not seeing him.

Hope that makes sense, I'd love to hear what you think

Cheers

Onkl

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Onkl

Huh? Where do you get your -10 from?

The enemy hast +10 to see someone on plain sight, like an enemy fighting. It's the same as -10 to stealth.

Originally Posted by Onkl

The question came up in a game I GM'ed recently. One of my players used a smoke nageteppo and wanted to dive in shadows afterwards. I said:"Ok, take a move maneuver and roll vs. Stealth-10 at the end of your turn" which he contested, because in his opinion the smoke from the Nageteppo should provide him with a bonus to this action. In my mind this doesn't make sense, although the nageteppo helps him not getting noticed by observers with vision, it does not help him make his stealth-10 roll, because this action is depending on his ability to making the stealth-10 roll and not on bystanders not seeing him.

Smoke should give at least +4, but more likely +6 to his roll, if he can hide somewhere near, that's another +3(or more).

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Smoke should give at least +4, but more likely +6 to his roll, if he can hide somewhere near, that's another +3(or more).

But that would mean, that you only need 13 Stealth to pull this (cinematic) stunt somewhat reliable in a suitable enviroment. So this could be done by practically everyone in a DF party.

I thought this should be left to Thieves, Scouts and the like? That's why I used the rule from Action the way I described above. It is the skill of the person diving in the shadow, that enables him to stealth around unseen and shouldn't be achievable using items.

Hrm

[mlangsdorf]

Reviewing the Action rule, it works like this:
Take a Move action and get behind cover. Then roll at Stealth-10 to disappear.

I wouldn't apply lighting modifiers to the roll, beyond noting that this trick works if and only if your opponents can't see you. If the only light in the room is a torch, you could get behind cover by moving more than about 15 yds away from the torch, unless the foe has Dark Vision. Alternately, if the enemy has Vibration Sense or Detect Life abilities, you can't use this ability at all unless there's some cover that shields you from those abilities.

As far as Onkl's question, I'd let a ninja (or other sneaky type) use the smoke from a nageteppo create the cover that he'd use to disappear into. I probably wouldn't provide a bonus to the Disappear roll for setting off a nageteppo, though.

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Reviewing the Action rule, it works like this:
Take a Move action and get behind cover. Then roll at Stealth-10 to disappear.

I wouldn't apply lighting modifiers to the roll, beyond noting that this trick works if and only if your opponents can't see you. If the only light in the room is a torch, you could get behind cover by moving more than about 15 yds away from the torch, unless the foe has Dark Vision. Alternately, if the enemy has Vibration Sense or Detect Life abilities, you can't use this ability at all unless there's some cover that shields you from those abilities.

As far as Onkl's question, I'd let a ninja (or other sneaky type) use the smoke from a nageteppo create the cover that he'd use to disappear into. I probably wouldn't provide a bonus to the Disappear roll for setting off a nageteppo, though.

Thanks a lot, this was what my gut feeling told me, I just wasn't able to process it into the explanation that you just gave. This cleared it up for me, thank you very much. Also, the nageteppo example you gave makes perfect sense and I will use it like that.

Now, the Min-Maxer in my group will try to abuse this ruling as follows:
Choose Move Maneuver, Fast-Draw (Nageteppo), Drop Nageteppo (Free Action), Stealth-10

The way I see it, a Nageteppo will only work when hurled somewhere - meaning you must use an Attack Maneuver to throw the nageteppo, if only in front of your feet.

What would you say?

*EDIT

Yeah, it says in the description of the nageteppo in DF1:25 they need to be hurled, so dropping them won't do anything.

Thanks again!

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Onkl

But that would mean, that you only need 13 Stealth to pull this (cinematic) stunt somewhat reliable in a suitable enviroment. So this could be done by practically everyone in a DF party.

Yeah, in a suitable environment.

Originally Posted by Onkl

I thought this should be left to Thieves, Scouts and the like? That's why I used the rule from Action the way I described above. It is the skill of the person diving in the shadow, that enables him to stealth around unseen and shouldn't be achievable using items.

But now remember, most of the time it won't be a suitable environment, he won't have a nageteppo, that increases the skill needed to 23.

Originally Posted by Onkl

Now, the Min-Maxer in my group will try to abuse this ruling as follows:
Choose Move Maneuver, Fast-Draw (Nageteppo), Drop Nageteppo (Free Action), Stealth-10

That's not how it works, you need to throw it on the ground, not just drop.

Originally Posted by Onkl

The way I see it, a Nageteppo will only work when hurled somewhere - meaning you must use an Attack Maneuver to throw the nageteppo, if only in front of your feet.

Exactly, if he dropped, unless it's from the tenth floor, it would just stay on the ground. Alternatively, it would break and produce smoke, but then, as soon as a guy slams him, all the others would also break.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Onkl

One of my players used a smoke nageteppo and wanted to dive in shadows afterwards. I said:"Ok, take a move maneuver and roll vs. Stealth-10 at the end of your turn" which he contested, because in his opinion the smoke from the Nageteppo should provide him with a bonus to this action.

In my mind this doesn't make sense, although the nageteppo helps him not getting noticed by observers with vision, it does not help him make his stealth-10 roll, because this action is depending on his ability to making the stealth-10 roll and not on bystanders not seeing him.

Paragraph break mine.

This is pretty off topic, but I think you're getting your answers in this thread. Hope I don't derail.

First of all, Rule #1 is have fun. I hear your internal consistency argument about the Thieves and Ninjas and such, but never ever trump Rule #1. If this guy isn't a Ninja or Thief or Scout, then it's kinda out of genre, but if in the player's imagination it's cool and it will make the game more fun for him, then I would certainly try my best to work with that!

You put his action at -10, "impossible," the most severe penalty (Task Difficulty, pp. B345-346), after he used a nageteppo. What would it have been without the nageteppo? Still -10. So, that was not the best game mastering decision, in my opinion. I think it would have been better to let it happen give the player a cool Batman escape scene to enjoy.

If you, as the GM, think that something won't work that the player thinks will work, then before his character, in game, makes the attempt, I would hash out the disagreement!

In this situation, if the smoke bomb wouldn't have helped him escape, the PC would have probably known that and would not have wasted time and the nageteppo on throwing it. That would be a reality check fail I would not want to happen in one of my games.

Just my $0.02.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Onkl

Now, the Min-Maxer in my group will try to abuse this ruling as follows:
Choose Move Maneuver, Fast-Draw (Nageteppo), Drop Nageteppo (Free Action), Stealth-10

The way I see it, a Nageteppo will only work when hurled somewhere - meaning you must use an Attack Maneuver to throw the nageteppo, if only in front of your feet.

What would you say?

I'd totally let him make a Move and Attack maneuver to pull that trick off, noting that he has to end his action behind cover to make the Stealth roll, and that all non-attack DX rolls are at an additional -2 during Move and Attack - so that's Fast-Draw at -2 and Stealth at -12(!!!) and a throwing roll at a net +2 to throw the nageteppo at his feet with a possible generous scatter if he misses.