Why isn't GURPS as popular as the D20 system and games

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mylon

Thus far GURPS hasn't worked very well with my group because character creation takes far too long. They get bogged down trying to think of skills and avantages and disadvantages. And once play starts they realize having a gun skill of 30 and not much else isn't quite such a great idea after all. (And I'm having a hard enough time getting together my adventure and making sure another player doesn't select frenzy and berserker). The guided aproach of the class-based system is much more gentle at making a balanced party of adventurers. And disadvantages... If I ever run GURPS again I'm going to flat-out say no disadvantages allowed, except perhaps as -1 quirks. This would speed up character creation immensely and stop the number of stupid disadvantages my players try to pick up (such as frenzy and berserker).

Laying down some hard rules like templates with a limit, like only changeable by 20/-5, for novice players to prevent them driving off of a cliff.

First off, there are templates out there you can use to speed things up.

BUT here's my real advice about character creation.

First off, don't get rid of disads, but you also don't have to allow everything either.

Don't give your players the books and then let them at it by themselves...so they spend all of this time wandering through the book looking for skills and what not. GURPS is flexible so it takes a GM to guide new players through the process. And it is the GM's responsibility to vet the PCs before they start so you don't have a PC with Guns-30 and nothing else.

The way I do it is not super slow and it is fun. It goes something like this:

The group part.
Me: Hey gang! I'm running a Fantasy game using GURPS [Note, this is not enough info, IMHO, now I must give them the frame]. Everyone is going to be a person connected to the court of a Marquis whose fortress is at the mountain borderlans between your home kingdom and the Minotaur and Centaur lands. The Minotaur and Centaur as always a threat to your home when they are not warring amongst themselves. The area is plains, scrub and desert. Your home is also protects an important pass along the Platinum Trail Trade Route. The Marquis Dei Sahhhd protects the trade and mining town of Masochiar as well as the entrance to the Kingdom of Keldar. Make a character concept of someone who lives in Masociar or the court and is known personally by the Marquis. And I encourage you all to have connections with each other. We'll talk concepts next week.

Next Week.

Me: Hey gang! Let's talk concepts.
Kate: I want to wield an ax...like a two-handed axe! So maybe like the Swiss Guards...Oh! I know! Can I be the Captain of the Gaurd?
Me: Sure, you'd probably also be a Knight. (Starts thinking about Ads/Disads)
Kate: That sounds cool.
Leo: I was thinking about being an entertainer...like I swallow swords and tacks and things...maybe like and acrobat, contortionist.
Me: You could be the court entertainer, the jester.
Leo: I'll be like a Bard.
Amy: I want to be an upstairs person...can I be the Marquis' daughter?
Basil: I want to be the scout, who can turn into bear, who patrols and keeps the town safe.
Me: So, like a druid.
Basil: Yeah!
Me: Do you want to be part of armed forces of the town, or attached?
Basil: Oh! I know! I want to be a Dwarven ambassador. The local Dwarven kingdom sent a Druid to help keep the Marches safe and be a liason with the Humans.
Kate: Hey, I want my captain of the guard to be in love with the daughter.
Amy: Oh that's great. We can be in love, but never be able to do anything about it because I'm already betrothed to noble from closer to the capital with more status.
Kate: Cool!
Me: Okay great, think about your background and concept some more and we'll meet one-on-one throughout the week and finalize.

Later...

Kate and I.
Me: So you want to be the Captain of the Guard and a Knight.
Kate: Yes.
Me: Well, you are going to want to me Status 2, have some Wealth, and military Rank. In terms of disadvantages, you should take Duty to the Marquis.
Kate: I also want to take an Enemy.
Me: Who?
Kate: The betrothed of the daughter...a Rival...he suspects something is going on and is out to destroy my name or stop me from progressing in society.
Me: Sounds Good.
Kate: I also want my character to have a Code of Honor (Chivalry) and be honest and truthful...so he is all wracked with guilt about his feelings for Amy's PC. And be really good at combat, so I'm thinking big and strong. Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold. But also, I want some social skills.
Me: Okay, you should probably take this Knightly Martial Style, that will cover your combat skills. You would also have leadership and heraldry, and if you are a good knight, Savoir-Faire, Dancing...
Kate: Yeah! Oh, and I want to be handsome.
Me: Let me open up the GURPS Character Sheet program (which is free and cross platform) and start putting these ideas on paper.
Kate: Can I also secretly be the Crown Prince of the Kingdom?
Me: I think that would be way too expensive for your point budget, and it doesn't make sense the crown prince would be the captain of the guard at a backwater march.
Kate: Okay...but I want some way to get more status later...
Me: Well do you want to be the average person who reaches great heights, or the disgraced higher person who must regain their position?
Kate: Hm...regain the position?
Me: Well you could be the son of nobles who backed the losing side of a Baron vs. Baron war. Your parents were killed and your barony taken over by the rival baron. Your parents were disgraced and you don't have anything from them, but you were taken in by the Marquis who had always been an ally to your parents.
Kate: Oh! And the rival is the son of the Baron who framed my parents and took over my home!
Me: Me...sounds good...let's put this on paper...

Then, after we get the broad strokes, we refine the details and we are done. The books may not have even needed to be opened at all.

Start with the concept and the character creation process is a LOT faster. And GURPS Character Sheet speeds things up as well. And you don't get crazy imbalanced chracters with Guns-30 and nothing else. And you don't get people taking things you don't want. And it is fun.

[knarf]

Originally Posted by Mylon

Thus far GURPS hasn't worked very well with my group because character creation takes far too long. They get bogged down trying to think of skills and avantages and disadvantages. And once play starts they realize having a gun skill of 30 and not much else isn't quite such a great idea after all. (And I'm having a hard enough time getting together my adventure and making sure another player doesn't select frenzy and berserker). The guided aproach of the class-based system is much more gentle at making a balanced party of adventurers. And disadvantages... If I ever run GURPS again I'm going to flat-out say no disadvantages allowed, except perhaps as -1 quirks. This would speed up character creation immensely and stop the number of stupid disadvantages my players try to pick up (such as frenzy and berserker).

Laying down some hard rules like templates with a limit, like only changeable by 20/-5, for novice players to prevent them driving off of a cliff.

Set up an approvals process for characters. Since you, as GM, will be called upon to challenge the characters, you should be very involved in this. The other players can get involved, too, as they work to establish their niches within the group. Even if there are no classes, encourage each player to stake out a niche for their character ("I'm the gun guy", "I'm the sneaky guy", etc.) and enlist the group in helping them fill out their niche.

Templates are also a good way to set up characters. If you use published 150 point templates in a 150 point campaign, you'll wind up with fairly narrow room for customization.

[Shrale]

I'd tell the players:

"Look we already know System X, but we're interested in GURPS, so
why do you have to play your PCs differently when we play GURPS ?"

"Why do you suddenly have to be a Berserker or Frenzied ? Why don't
you stick to rather simple or basic characters until you get the hang
of things ?"

That should work, unless your players are just mindless freaks looking
for something, like sharks in a blood frenzy.

If your players know how to play a barbarian or wizard in D&D, then they
should be able to play one in GURPS.

The mind-numbing details will come with time, I'd probably stress learning
the Timing/Combat/Magic system first (if your campaign features that) and
stick to it.

Your players can play a freaked out zipper-head after a few sessions and
people understand what's going on.

So it's probably a good thing to limit characters to 100 points max.

Then you can suggest to them in a few weeks: "Anyone getting tired of
their PCs ? Why don't bring new PCs for the game next week -- meaning
already created. I'll look over them during the first half of the game and
see if we can fit them in."

Then the more bizarre PCs can be reworked.

>

[maximara]

Originally Posted by knarf

Set up an approvals process for characters. Since you, as GM, will be called upon to challenge the characters, you should be very involved in this. The other players can get involved, too, as they work to establish their niches within the group. Even if there are no classes, encourage each player to stake out a niche for their character ("I'm the gun guy", "I'm the sneaky guy", etc.) and enlist the group in helping them fill out their niche.

Templates are also a good way to set up characters. If you use published 150 point templates in a 150 point campaign, you'll wind up with fairly narrow room for customization.

Templates need not take up all the points. Here is an example from my old D&D3.5 to GURPS 4.0 conversion sheet:

Fighter [14]
Armoury/TL (IQ/a), Bow (DX/a), Brawling (DX/e), Crossbow (DX/e)
Melee Weapons: Axe/Mace (DX/a), Flail (DX/h), Knife (DX/e), Polearm (DX/a), Spear (DX/a), Shortsword (DX/a), Two handed Axe/Mace (DX/a), and Two-handed sword (DX/a),
Shield (DX/e), Throwing (DX/a)
Optional advantages: Enhanced Defenses (B51), Trained By Master (B93), Weapon Master (B99)
Optional Wildcard skill: Sword! (DX, B175)

Barbarian Lens [+0] (F116)
You are a fighter from one of the ‘Uncivilized’ parts of the world.
Add Basic Speed [5/0.25], Low TL [-5/TL]; Language (native speaker, illiterate) [-3]
Running (HT/a), Strategy (IQ/h), Tactics (IQ/h)
Optional Advantage: Enhanced Defenses (Dodge, B51)
Optional disadvantage: Berserk (B124)

Paladin Lens [+45]
You are a warrior defender of the faith. Add Blessed or Power Investiture (powers lost if Chivalric and/or Religious Codes broken, severe penance) [10], Rep +2 (from Religion) [10], Status 2 [10], Comfortable Wealth or Patron [10], True Faith [15], Vow (Chivalric Code of Honor) [-15];
Riding (DX/a), Lance (DX/a), Heraldry (IQ/a), Savoir-Faire (IQ/e), Spells (IQ/h-v)
Optional advantages: Healing (B56)
Optional skills: Esoteric Medicine (B192), Hidden Lore (B199), Physician/TL (B213)

Ranger Lens [+11/+16]
You are fighter with an affinity with nature. Add Magery 0 [5] or Power Investiture [10];
Animal Handling (IQ/a), Hiking (HT/a), Naturalist (IQ/h), Survival (IQ/a), Tracking (IQ/a), Veterinary/TL (IQ/v)
Optional advantages: Animal Empathy (B40), Talent (Animal Friend) (B89-90)

Note there is enough to get the "class" but not so much you can't customize things.

[Six_Gun_Sam]

My theory as to why many players load up their PC's with disads is that the point cost the GM had set is to low.

Try bumping up the starting points by 50 or so and see how character generation goes next time.

[knarf]

Originally Posted by Six_Gun_Sam

My theory as to why many players load up their PC's with disads is that the point cost the GM had set is to low.

Try bumping up the starting points by 50 or so and see how character generation goes next time.

People will still take the full boat of disadvantages. In general, players will try to get the most out of their point budget.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by knarf

People will still take the full boat of disadvantages. In general, players will try to get the most out of their point budget.

This is the truth. People took the same amount of disadvantages in both my 150-point dark fantasy campaigns and the 1000-point "avatar of the gods" campaign. It's amazing how no matter the number of points, there's always that "just a little more!" desire, where it's never quite enough to get everything you want.

The only difference I've ever seen by allowing 50 more points was that attributes, advantages, and skills totaled 50 points more. Disadvantages never really changed.

[The Final Door]

I think the disads are often very underplayed in GURPS. I have never seen a game (mine or at the conventions) that truly made something of them. I have taken a liking, philosophically (no chance for practical application yet), to the idea posted somewhere in here of disadvantages COSTING points, but being a way to get awarded with points or other stuff when roleplayed or otherwise implemented during the game by the player.

Every GURPS player at some point gets a tactical mind. Suppressing disads becomes an art. That means you take as many as you can, buff up with the points, and try to act like you're not a sociophobic kleptomaniac bully with a vow of poverty and compulsive gambling!

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by The Final Door

Every GURPS player at some point gets a tactical mind. Suppressing disads becomes an art. That means you take as many as you can, buff up with the points, and try to act like you're not a sociophobic kleptomaniac bully with a vow of poverty and compulsive gambling!

That wouldn't fly in my games. If you put it on the sheet, I'm going to make it come up. If you don't RP your disads, you don't earn xp.

[Pragmatic]

How often do people take MORE disadvantages than the maximum, even if they don't bring in more points...?