Speculation on Roles aboard a 400 Type T cruiser

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by hal

You do realize that the Transponder can be detected as far away as 21 AU's - which is further away than most radios can broadcast or receive right? Somehow, I get the feeling that someone was sleeping at the switch when that rule was written :(

No, you may not be able to get high grade voice and video at that distance but you can get reception of simple repetitve sequences like a ship's registry number at either 10x or 100x "normal" range I don't remember off-hand.

This low bandwidth repetition trick is how TL7 space probes manage to send back data with very low powered senders from 20 AU out (orbit of Uranus) and farther,

Nobody asleep at the switch. An almost unbelievab;le amount of time and energy went into the technical details of GT. The starships playtest went for months and 5000 messages as jsut one example.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, you may not be able to get high grade voice and video at that distance but you can get reception of simple repetitve sequences like a ship's registry number at either 10x or 100x "normal" range I don't remember off-hand.

This low bandwidth repetition trick is how TL7 space probes manage to send back data with very low powered senders from 20 AU out (orbit of Uranus) and farther,

Nobody asleep at the switch. An almost unbelievab;le amount of time and energy went into the technical details of GT. The starships playtest went for months and 5000 messages as jsut one example.

Ok, so you're not going to even blink at the idea, that a radio sensor or neutrino sensor or even radiation sensor can spot a ship entering into jump space from as far away as 2.5 light years? Granted, the transponder transmitter still seems far-fetched to me that such can be detected with ease, from as far away as 21 au's with a 50/50 chance of success for a normal professional sensor operator. Something more akin to rolls of a 5 or less on 3d6 might seem more "realistic", but if you're firmly of the belief that a transponder should be that easily spotted, I'll take your word on it.

I still maintain however, that 2.5 light years detection range for radio noise or neutrino noise or what have you, is asking for a bit much in the suspension of disbelief department. One has to wonder how it scales as compared against say, a Star, and whether or not it would be drowned out by background noise from that distance.

[Shrale]

Originally Posted by hal

I still maintain however, that 2.5 light years detection range for radio noise or neutrino noise or what have you, is asking for a bit much in the suspension of disbelief department. One has to wonder how it scales as compared against say, a Star, and whether or not it would be drowned out by background noise from that distance.

IMHO that sort of thing falls under GM's fiat; the players who thought they
could sneak in the back door without being seen out by AU20+ or so. Or the
reverse: ship is hosed and all we've got is this crummy radio or transponder
unit that's now jury-rigged... There's so many things that can block and
distort and so on, that it just becomes impossible to give a realistic interpretation (although some people on these boards might).

YMMV.

>

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by hal

Ok, so you're not going to even blink at the idea, that a radio sensor or neutrino sensor or even radiation sensor can spot a ship entering into jump space from as far away as 2.5 light years?

I have absolutely no idea what "jump flash" consists of or how visible it should be. We;re in pure superscience territory here.

Questions in regard to jump flash probably need to be directed to Mark Miller. I think it is his idea.

[Bill Cameron]

Originally Posted by hal

Jump Flash rules on page 121 of GURPS TRAVELLER...

Hal,

Who cares? Seriously. Who cares? Jump flash has been blown out of all proportion in the last decade or so and the sensor rules for it G:T simply compound the problem.

Flash may have bee mentioned in the odd CT or MT amber zone or adventure. The first time it was truly discussed was in TNE's RSB and then only as part of effect of light speed lag on sensor information. The RSB passage is chock full of qualifiers too, yet the Hobby seems to believe that jump exit and entrance is some easily detected system-wide "flash bulb" from which all sorts of information can be derived.

So, G:T has rules for jump flash detection? Whoop-de-doo. In First In, the same rules version features a bit of sidebar color text in which an IISS cruiser on an ELINT mission deep in Consulate space masks it's jump flash from any by exiting near a distant gas giant. Is there a die roll modifier for that? The passage in FI certainly implies there should be.

Dial jump flash back to RSB's vague take on it or, better yet, ditch it entirely. It will make things easier.


Bill

[nik1979]

well I actually want to know more about the problems with jump flash. Particularly since Pirates can use them to detect incoming Prey.

If I can set up a number of passive drones to triangulate and "beep" me incommings this will definitely affect doctrine.

Once you can triangulate where an arrival occurred, it becomes a matter of narrowing down where to look.

If a system can create a Jump Detection Network Relay, they can theoretically track movements within a system to a scary degree of accuracy.

You can set up a system by placing surveillance drones at the highest probability of arrival (particularly is most consistent source of traffic), then place several other low powered (and cheaper) drones in several possible routes based on the possible decision matrix anyone entering the system will take.

If these ships don't follow a certain pattern upon arrive, one can already detect by context if it is a possible threat. Someone jumping into a system then skirting around or "disappearing" can considered a threat.

Also the JUMP flash history within almost a Parsec Range is quite useful. Basically it creates an external data base of jump accounts, in an era where petra bytes are roughly as common as gigabytes in our current time line. An act the Comm and Sensor automation or watch may passively record.

In Game Purposes, this is a story telling tool and a tactical tool. As a story telling tool, the jump flash history can be useful when collaborating the logs of different ships with a mystery. As a tactical tool the GM uses the Jump Flash to indicate to players where they first detected "incoming". If you are using cheap disposable drones for basic recon, one can use it to independently alert the PCs of where X arrived, and with the use of other drones where it seems to be heading.

Although, one could speculate the Flash and The Ship broadcast is a hi-density and intensity very short signal that can easily be copied (which is frequently done in sci-fi settings, because of wavelength trade off from long and complicated to short but dense).

being able to Mask Jump Flash is also an interesting aspect, should it be allowed? If it is allowed the way it will affect system defense doctrine (and sneak attacks) will change.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Bill Cameron

Hal,

Who cares? Seriously. Who cares? Jump flash has been blown out of all proportion in the last decade or so and the sensor rules for it G:T simply compound the problem.

Flash may have bee mentioned in the odd CT or MT amber zone or adventure. The first time it was truly discussed was in TNE's RSB and then only as part of effect of light speed lag on sensor information. The RSB passage is chock full of qualifiers too, yet the Hobby seems to believe that jump exit and entrance is some easily detected system-wide "flash bulb" from which all sorts of information can be derived.

So, G:T has rules for jump flash detection? Whoop-de-doo. In First In, the same rules version features a bit of sidebar color text in which an IISS cruiser on an ELINT mission deep in Consulate space masks it's jump flash from any by exiting near a distant gas giant. Is there a die roll modifier for that? The passage in FI certainly implies there should be.

Dial jump flash back to RSB's vague take on it or, better yet, ditch it entirely. It will make things easier.


Bill

The first time I saw any mention that there was an electromagnetic event involved with a jump - is in THE STARSHIP OWNERS MANUAL where the jump is accompanied by a visible light spectrum event - a flash of light and the ship disappeared. That's fine, but no one quantified it as being "detectable" nor included rules for it. And that's fine. My point here is that being able to detect something 2.5 light years away with a 50/50 chance of success using standard bridge equipment and a professionally trained sensor operator - was probably NOT intended by the rules designers. If it had been, don't you think someone would have said "Hey, do we REALLY want Jump Flashes to be discovered at that range?" What people are forgetting here is the fact that with GURPS VEHICLES, after all positive and negative modifiers were factored in, any event with a -10 overall final modifier was an automatic failure. But consider this for a moment:

Every 2 levels of modifiers added or subtracted from the current score, either involves doubling the range or halving the range. Thus, for a Skill 12 sensor operator, whose modified skill roll is a 10 at a range of 2.5 light years, would be at a skill 12 at 1/2 of 2.5 light years (or 1.25 light years), or would be a base skill of 8 at 5 light years (double that of 2.5 light years discussed earlier).

Note that this problem becomes worse when you consider that a Command Bridge with its scanner rating of 38 is +7 compared/contrasted against the Basic Bridge of TL 10. The Command Bridge attempting to spot a jump flash at 2.5 light years, will be successful on a roll of a 17 or less.

So.

Skill: Range
17: 2.5 light years
15: 5 light years
13: 10 light years
11: 20 light years (actually, every change by 6 is equal to a ten fold increase in range, so that is really 25 light years!)

So a skill 12 sensor operator, using a Command Bridge from a TL 12 ship, (and we're not talking about enhanced sensors, which will extend the range even further), will be able to spot Jump space Entries at a range of 25 light years, which works out to 9.6 parsecs.

This is NOT standard Traveller, and was NEVER hinted at within Traveller Canon as being possible.

So, yes, I agree that GURPS TRAVELLER made a situation you consider to be blown out of proportion, even worse. Which is why I'm saying that someone was asleep at the switch when they designed that rule. I'm betting, that this never DID come up in playtest, and that no one saw the ramifications or extended the range penalties chart to determine just what the formula of "60 minus the TL of the ship" doing the jump would have on the overall game.

Now, transponders that can reach out to 20 AU's will also have the infamous Speed of light limitation imposed upon them. If your sensor has picked up a transponder that is say, 10 AU's away, it would take roughly 83 minutes for the signal to leave its transponder and reach your location (or roughly 4 combat turns using 20 minute turns).

That's just at 10 AU's. 20 AU's is even worse.

Is this what was desired for GURPS TRAVELLER?

I digress however, from the original intent of this thread, which was to try and envision life aboard this vessel as if it were real, and the Third Imperium was real, etc <g>.

[rasimus]

Originally Posted by hal

<snip>So.

Skill: Range
17: 2.5 light years
15: 5 light years
13: 10 light years
11: 20 light years (actually, every change by 6 is equal to a ten fold increase in range, so that is really 25 light years!)

So a skill 12 sensor operator, using a Command Bridge from a TL 12 ship, (and we're not talking about enhanced sensors, which will extend the range even further), will be able to spot Jump space Entries at a range of 25 light years, which works out to 9.6 parsecs.

This is NOT standard Traveller, and was NEVER hinted at within Traveller Canon as being possible.

[snip]

I digress however, from the original intent of this thread, which was to try and envision life aboard this vessel as if it were real, and the Third Imperium was real, etc <g>.

I'm probably missing something. Does it make a big difference if you can detect a jump flash out one, five, or even ten parsecs? I can imagine someone in Rhylanor subsector looking out with their equivalent to the Hubble Telescope in 'modern' times -- yep, here come Zho... during last war. Of some historical interest, and might be interesting to work out some military mysteries, and maybe even help track down a few vessels which might serve as good salvage which misjumped or precipitated out far from civilization. Seems more likely that there are lots of jump flashes visible in other systems, maybe even in the next subsector or so, that no one ever bothers to look.

Jump flashes a day (~173 AU) away are very interesting.
Jump flashes a week old (~1,210 AU) are interesting, possibly 'cause I might have company for dinner if it was an in-system jump.
Two week old (~2,419 AU), and it should definitely be recorded.
Detections a month out and beyond are getting into the range of things which might be useful for correlating data points, but individual flashes aren't going to be very useful. I could see folks collecting this to correlate data to see if someone has established a base of some sort in deep space that perhaps should be visited.
Detections of objects out at a parsec, or three years old, would be interesting as background to an adventure... but unless it was part of a pattern, I'm not going to be jumping out there to say 'hi.'

If Longbow can see 1500 parsecs with a 10 meter or half meter resolution, I'm confident that sensors can see vast distances. But seeing what happened in a distant sector during the First Imperium just doesn't seem that useful to me.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by hal

Hi Bill and Fred,

Jump Flash rules on page 121 of GURPS TRAVELLER states that the jump flash has a signature value equal to 60 minus the TL of the ship entering jump space (mind you, I think this needs to be revised, as this is a horrendously HIGH signature!), but lets see where this takes us rules as written...

I finally went back to my own books to double-check these numbers and did not find any numbers about Jump Signature at all.

This discrepancy is possible. My GT book is a 1st edition. Hal could be using a 2nd.

I decline to defend any changes between 1st and 2nd editions. I know of some very serious errors (such as relating to TL of characters) that crept in to the 2nd edition changes.

My 1st ed. says nothing at all about how detectable Jump Flash is (either entrance or exit) and I honestly can't remember the subject being discussed before.

[Shrale]

Originally Posted by Bill Cameron

So, G:T has rules for jump flash detection? Whoop-de-doo. In First In, the same rules version features a bit of sidebar color text in which an IISS cruiser on an ELINT mission deep in Consulate space masks it's jump flash from any by exiting near a distant gas giant. Is there a die roll modifier for that? The passage in FI certainly implies there should be.

Bill

it's a question of probably knowing precisely where the GG is in relationship
to the planet...

and crossing your fingers and hoping they haven't put up some sort of
sensor satellites since digesting your last full plate of knowledge on that system.

As soon as I hear GG I immediately think of SDBs and patrols, at least in
inhabited systems, and not just one ship, at least 3 or 4, not to mention
any small craft that might be pressed into service.

So it works out to be a gamble, depending on your target system and the
myriad of variables that are possible.

Detecting Jump might be a gimme in certain situations, especially in systems
that can place astrotelescopes in orbit to monitor jump points.

This is where SKILL in piloting and navigation, not to mention the science
behind it all is going to make a big difference (good old experience).
And it's all for naught if the home team has placed countermeasures to
prevent sneak-jumps (and knows what they're doing as well).

It's also a way to automate routine starport stats: if incoming/outgoing
jumps are differentiated then you can count and group them according
to your lists and flightplans ("Yes the disturbance at X/Y certainly leans
towards a 400-ton ship heading out for...") and collating that info after
it reaches the sensors and is recorded.

>