Meta-Trait: Plant (for critique)

[naloth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

Why would you design it with points?

Exactly what I was thinking. It's something you could find or buy, not something you would play.

BTW, Vibration Sense is a sense. With an IQ of 1 it would miss an elephant until it was stepped on.

[Cernig]

It's something you could find or buy, not something you would play.

So is a golem or zombie. They have points. If you extend "play" to mean NPC's too, no matter how mindless - then plants need points too.

With an IQ of 1 it would miss an elephant until it was stepped on

Or munched on it. Which is exactly how I wanted this plant to be. The purpose was to show the bottom end of a range of plants that goes all the way up to Triffids and Ents. If I wanted more perception I would increase it.

Regards, C

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Cernig

So is a golem or zombie. They have points. If you extend "play" to mean NPC's too, no matter how mindless - then plants need points too.

First off, either I or one of my group as played both a zombie (not me) and a golem (me, Scrat) as characters. I can certainly see stating them up as characters.

You can stat grass and roses if you like, but I don't see the value in assigning points unless it can be used as an Ally, Dependent, Patron, or PC.

Or munched on it. Which is exactly how I wanted this plant to be. The purpose was to show the bottom end of a range of plants that goes all the way up to Triffids and Ents. If I wanted more perception I would increase it.

Ok, but it will likely be dead before it ever gets the chance to react.

I suppose you could argue that one's a dependent but that sounds more like an Obsession. I cannot see them as an Ally or Patron. You couldn't make them playable with even a few tweaks.

Again, stat what you like. That's fine. I tend to use the character generation rules for things that have value as a character or on a character sheet.

[Cernig]

Again, stat what you like. That's fine. I tend to use the character generation rules for things that have value as a character or on a character sheet.

I don't have a problem with that, at all at all. I even agree. But if I'm going to build a wild animal (even a lowly mouse or rat) I start with the meta-trait, if I'm going to build a sentient triffid I start with the meta-trait. I thought I saw a gap, and thought that might be why there are so few plant-creatures in the cannon. You can agree or disagree and I'm fine with both approaches - it feels a bit like the debate between freeform playability and gritty realism to be honest. If you don't have a use for such a meta-trait don't use it.

But at least enter into the spirit of the thread and give some suggestions for unusual plants (big, small, mobile, singing, dancing, doing alegbra - I don't care) others can use in their play...with or without points, with or without any meta-trait let alone mine. :-)

Regards, C

[Verjigorm]

Some folks may also be able to morph into plants...

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Cernig

I don't have a problem with that, at all at all. I even agree. But if I'm going to build a wild animal (even a lowly mouse or rat) I start with the meta-trait, if I'm going to build a sentient triffid I start with the meta-trait. I thought I saw a gap, and thought that might be why there are so few plant-creatures in the cannon. You can agree or disagree and I'm fine with both approaches - it feels a bit like the debate between freeform playability and gritty realism to be honest. If you don't have a use for such a meta-trait don't use it.

The comments were directed specifically at the whether or not Dead Broke and No Sense of Humor should be part of the meta-trait.

As general advice, I think you shouldn't overload the meta-trait with a bunch of traits that you will need to buy off. Most of the existing meta-traits are like this.

I would also suggest that you break it up into more building blocks. Take for example some animal building blocks: domestic animal, wild animal, and quadruped. Using combinations of those three I have most of the traits necessary (besides basic stats) for a wolf, dog, or horse ally without having to buy off traits.

As for Dead Broke, it's misleading. A horse can either be represented by having items and working <or> you can buy a duty and a patron (owner). It's usually not worth statting out the difference. Either way there's costs that need to be paid.

But at least enter into the spirit of the thread and give some suggestions for unusual plants (big, small, mobile, singing, dancing, doing alegbra - I don't care) others can use in their play...with or without points, with or without any meta-trait let alone mine. :-)

I suggest multiple meta-traits covering different plant aspects. There's a few obvious morphology traits (vines, bark covered, non-moving) that come to mind. Cannot Learn, Fixed IQ, and other mentality traits could be grouped separately into a meta-trait (perhaps Vegetable?) to make it easy not to take them.

As for the individual advantages:

Cold-Blooded makes sense for a few types of plants, but most have a pretty wide temperature range. You'll at least need to take on some Temperature Tolerance to allow for most plants.

Plants react to music so I don't think Deafness is appropriate.

Dependency (Sunlight) & Doesn't Eat can be changed into a special diet (feature). I might even add Slow Eater if they have to spend lot more time than humans do eating.

Doesn't Breathe (osmosis) isn't entirely appropriate. Most plant cannot live underwater and they are vulnerable to airborne toxins. You might consider oxygen storage instead.

Doesn't Sleep isn't necessary. Plants seem to be sleeping most of the time.

Fragile (Combustible) isn't necessary. Most plants don't burn any better than humans do. Wet (living) plants -even trees - don't that burn easily.

Hard to Subdue is hard to prove. Plants may pass out very easily.

Indomitable isn't good generic mental trait. Traditionally you can persuade plants you can communicate with.

Invertebrate wouldn't be applicable to tree like plants though it makes sense for vines.

Lifting ST+5 seems like a strange combo w/Invertebrate. For grappling vines this would be a good trait.

No Legs (Sessile) true for most plants, though some float along water.

No Manipulators doesn't fit. Both trees and vines often grapple. It's not that plants don't have manipulators, it's that they don't usually move. (DX 0, Speed 0 for those varieties.)

Numb: with this a plant couldn't tell it was being eaten. Sounds bad and it directly contradicts what you tried to do with the sample plant.

Most plants aren't particularly Resistant to Metabolic Hazards. Any number of household chemicals that didn't seem particularly dangerous could kill a plant pretty easily.

Unfazeable is hard to guage. Communicating plants usually have a degree of human emotion.

I also don't agree with Vulnerability (Fire Damage x4). I don't think most plants are appreciably more flammable than humans.

[Cernig]

Hi naloth,

Constructive comment. Thanks.

Maybe this is why the folks at SJG didn't do a set of plant metas - too much to think about.

You've some good points and ideas there, so I think I'll set you a challenge. Can you stat up the meta-trait group you think would work? I'll happily use them in preference to mine as the point is to get people thinking about how easy it would be to have fun and interesting plants in campaigns. After all, how much sense does it make to have all these exotic animals and no vegetables? that's not a balanced diet.

Regards, C

[Exxar]

Transhuman Space: Changing Times is a great example on constructing templates for things that would normally be considered property, but could have uses for which statting is neccessary.

There are stats in there for a software package neccessary to keep an "empty" robot body powered and hooked to a network in case your AI character wants to upload himself into it. Basically, it's a dumb piece of equipment with stats.

In case you upload yourself into the body, this minimal software template becomes irrelevant as you take over the body, but it is statted nevertheless. Yes, it has IQ 0, Dead Broke and the rest of stuff you think shouldn't be going into a template.

Remember that GURPS stats are centered around an average human. Compared to a human, a plant cannot get jokes. Even if it could hear us and had the IQ neccessary to understand them, it would have an entirely different psychology with an entirely different sense of humor, if any. Therefor, if you want a thoroughly comprehensive and accurate plant template for GURPS, give it No Sense of Humor (and rule that characters with Plant Empathy can tell jokes to plants in spite of this No Sense of Humor since they are attuned to their psyche).



Now, it would probably be a good idea to construct a meta-trait not for a whole plant, but for a plant body. THS:CT takes this approach - it separates "body" templates and "mind" templates. If you want to stat real plants, stick your Plant Body meta-trait with a "plant mind" template. If you want to stat a guy who changes his anatomy into that of a plant, just give him the Plant Body meta-trait and be done with it.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Cernig

I don't have a problem with that, at all at all. I even agree. But if I'm going to build a wild animal (even a lowly mouse or rat) I start with the meta-trait, if I'm going to build a sentient triffid I start with the meta-trait.

Then shouldn't the meta-trait not include a whole bunch of disads that preclude being able to be a sentient triffid unless you remove a bunch of disads? The triffids weren't sessile. I'd suggest that instead of including every trait of plants, you come up with the minimum required to qualify as a plant and go from there.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Exxar

Remember that GURPS stats are centered around an average human.

Yep. The game assumes that a human not only has ST 10, DX 10, IQ 10, HT 10, HP 10, Will 10, Per 10, FP 10, Basic Speed 5.00, and Basic Move 5, but is someone who . . .

. . . is a member of the setting's dominant sapient race.
. . . has Status 0, and in fact has a Status rating at all.
. . . has a Wealth of Average, and starts with campaign starting money.
. . . has a TL, because his/her racial average IQ is high enough.
. . . has a culture, because his/her racial average IQ is high enough.
. . . has a language, because his/her racial average IQ is high enough.
. . . can articulate that language.
. . . has an Appearance of Average vis-à-vis other humans.
. . . has sex-differentiated positive Appearance, if he/she has positive Appearance.
. . . can have any mundane advantage or disadvantage, but can't have exotic or supernatural ones.
. . . is self-aware and creative.
. . . can learn and improve skills and attributes.
. . . has senses of vision, hearing, touch, taste, and smell.
. . . can see color, depth, and motion in a 180° forward arc, including 30° of peripheral vision on each side.
. . . sees in the spectrum that starts after IR on the long-wave end and ends before UV on the short-wave end.
. . . has poor night vision but good light tolerance.
. . . hears in the frequency range 40 Hz to 20 kHz.
. . . has no intrinsic supernatural awareness, yet has the innate ability to resist supernatural attack even when unaware or unconscious.
. . . has a vertical, upright posture.
. . . isn't blob- or box-shaped, and so bases SM strictly on height.
. . . has a head -- with two ears, two eyes, one nose, and one mouth -- atop a vulnerable neck.
. . . has two arms that end in hands with fingers, two legs that end in feet with toes, and no other limbs.
. . . has a master hand and an "off" hand.
. . . has a bodily layout that allows catching, climbing, digging, dodging, dragging, hiking, jumping, lifting, running, striking, swimming, and wrestling.
. . . uses consistently the same ST and DX for all of these purposes.
. . . can deal thrust and swing damage based on ST.
. . . can lift weights based on Basic Lift calculated from ST.
. . . has a default Water Move of 1/5 Basic Move and a default Air Move of 0.
. . . has native conditions of a 21:78 O2/N2 atmosphere at 1 atm of pressure, a temperature of 35°F to 90°F, and 1 g of gravity.
. . . must breathe, but not so constantly that injury results instantly from pausing for a while.
. . . must eat and drink three times a day, but almost any organic matter will do except for a few things specifically described as "poison."
. . . must sleep approximately 8 hours a night.
. . . is vulnerable to acid, disease, heat and cold outside natural limits, poison, radiation, vacuum, etc.
. . . is living, not unliving, homogenous, or diffuse.
. . . bleeds when injured.
. . . suffers extra injury when hit in the skull, neck, or vitals.
. . . risks unconsciousness at 0 HP, death at -HP, certain death at -5×HP, and bodily destruction at -10×HP.
. . . heals naturally, but doesn't regenerate.
. . . benefits from drugs manufactured by human society.
. . . ages, and gets 32 years of optimal capability, between maturity at age 18 and possible decline due to aging at age 50.
. . . has FP in the first place, and so can use extra effort.
. . . gets one turn per second.

If any of those things isn't true, then you have to account for it in a racial template. Exceptions won't always cost points -- often, features will do the trick. However, you must still account for them; statements like "one of these things won't be true, so these others won't, either" don't cut it. In particular, if you're assuming that a creature might be a PC, then it's very definitely important to specify things like Dead Broke. Telling a player, "No, your character is a plant, of course you don't own anything" is a good way to start an argument. Personally, I think it's best to have a purely physical meta-trait (Body of Plant), and to have separate mobility (Potted Plant, Tumbling Plant, etc.), mentality (Mindless Plant, Sentient Plant, etc.), and social (Household Plant, Wild Plant, etc.) meta-traits.