New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?) - Page 13

Shadekeep · 10-02-2018, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Astral Projection, including the staff portion, isn't "new"; Advanced Wizard p. 15.

Sure, but the cumulative changes in the new version make staves weird. Or at least more exploitable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Both old and new Astral Projection specify that the wizard can't use ST from a Powerstone/ST battery, but can they use ST stored in a Manastaff?

If staves followed any kind of logic, I'd say "no". But who knows at this point, until the word comes down from on high.

platimus · 10-02-2018, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

Sure, but the cumulative changes in the new version make staves weird. Or at least more exploitable.

If staves followed any kind of logic, I'd say "no". But who knows at this point, until the word comes down from on high.

Also, Astral Projection rules from Advanced Wizard are irrelavent since we aren't getting re-prints of AW.

Skarg · 10-02-2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Astral Projection, including the staff portion, isn't "new"; Advanced Wizard p. 15.

I would say, though, that since there's no ST cost to use the staff's "occult blast", then you can't pay triple the ST cost to affect the real world, and therefore you can't have auto-hit astral staff assassins.

Both old and new Astral Projection specify that the wizard can't use ST from a Powerstone/ST battery, but can they use ST stored in a Manastaff?

What's new is what staffs do. Before the powers of the staff were to hit something with DX one hex away for 1d normal damage, as an action. Or for Staff of Power, 2d and no drop/break results. Now it's an "occult" attack, which sounds to me as written like it would be able to hurt people on the normal plane, but yeah, hopefully that's just not really meant to be able to do that!

I don't think the "it needs to cost ST" applies, since it says it has the powers of the staff, and having no cost to me just implies 3 x 0 = 0.

As for using staff ST, I would think the answer as written looks like yes, because again it says all the staff powers work, and that's a staff power. Also thinking about Staff to Snake which lets you have your snake slither away but still says it lets you draw staff mana.

Chris Goodwin · 10-02-2018, 03:05 PM

Agreed, yes, we need to know how the new Staff features interact with Astral Projection, but that's by no means the only thing we need to know about the new Staff features.

The wording in Astral Projection between Advanced Wizard and new ITL is almost identical. The only substantial change is that in AW it says "...STAFF or STAFF OF POWER spell" where in new ITL it says "...Staff spell".

Huh. That would imply that in new ITL, only the basic functions of the Staff spell apply, which means no Manastaff. And no auto-hit. I will still rule that since the "occult blast" costs no ST, it can't be used by an astral figure against the physical realm. (But see also the Blast spell...)

Venomous Filigree · 10-02-2018, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin

Agreed, yes, we need to know how the new Staff features interact with Astral Projection, but that's by no means the only thing we need to know about the new Staff features.

The wording in Astral Projection between Advanced Wizard and new ITL is almost identical. The only substantial change is that in AW it says "...STAFF or STAFF OF POWER spell" where in new ITL it says "...Staff spell".

Huh. That would imply that in new ITL, only the basic functions of the Staff spell apply, which means no Manastaff. And no auto-hit. I will still rule that since the "occult blast" costs no ST, it can't be used by an astral figure against the physical realm. (But see also the Blast spell...)

According to the new ITL "there are five levels of Staff spell" (pg 18), which implies that each level of the Staff Spell is a "Staff Spell"?

Steve Jackson · 10-02-2018, 04:48 PM

(I anticipate this is the last major issue that I'll deal with before it goes to print. Hopefully it IS the last major issue.)

I agree with some but not all of the criticisms of the Staff system as presented, but realistically, you people are a good focus group, and your feedback indicates that any version of the IQ staff is just going to be houseruled away in a lot of campaigns. That's an argument against writing it like that in the first place.

So here's a mod that tones the staff back to more vanilla systems but keeps some things that make it an antidote to Conan the Wizard . . .

-------

Staff (S): This spell is used to make any piece of wood into a staff. ST cost is 5. Unlike other spells, the Staff spells can be learned only by a wizard; the staff is the very mark of wizardry. See p. 148.
A wizard does not have to have a staff. If he wants one, he must know the Staff spell to create one. The wizard does not create the staff during play (except to replace a broken one). If he knows the Staff spell, he starts with a staff, without spending any ST to create it.
Regardless of what the staff looks like – rod, wand, quarterstaff, etc. – it is an occult weapon that does one die of damage (adjacent hex only) when the wizard points with it. The wizard spends 1 ST and makes a regular die roll to hit. The staff does not have to touch its target in order to deliver its flare of magical energy.
You may keep your staff in hand at all times, even when casting spells; it gives no advantage or disadvantage. A staff can be affected by a Drop Weapon or Break Weapon spell.
If anyone other than the owner of a staff picks it up against the owner’s will, it explodes, doing the fool who touched it 3 dice damage. A dead wizard’s staff eventually becomes safe to touch. You don’t know when.
There are five levels of Staff spell, of increasing power. Each level of Staff is a prerequisite to the next, but the wizard need not “remember” earlier levels of Staff in order to use his highest one, and (for instance) a character who is created with IQ 13 may start with Staff III without buying the lesser versions.

Staff II / Manastaff (S): Like the basic Staff, except it now has a Mana stat to let it be charged with ST. By spending XP, the Mana stat can be increased from its starting 0 up to the level of the wizard’s IQ. Only the creator may draw ST from the staff. See The Wizard’s Staff, p. 148.
Also, the staff’s occult attack now bypasses the armor or natural defense of its target. Magical defenses such as Stone Flesh still operate.

Staff III / Staff of Striking (S): Like Staff II, except that its occult attack may strike a figure two hexes away in any direction from the wizard, and the to-hit roll is made at DX+3. It is immune to Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells and critical failures.

Staff IV / Staff of Power (S): Like Staff III, except the attack is a free action – the wizard may use the staff’s strike while doing anything else, including attacking, running away, or using the staff as a physical weapon. However, if the staff is used as a weapon, its occult strike must be directed at the same target.

Staff V / Staff of Mastery (S): Like Staff IV, except that the Mana stat of the staff may be raised, by spending XP, up to twice the wizard’s IQ, and its occult damage is increased to 1d+2. The Staff of Mastery still does 3 dice damage if picked up against the owner’s will, but does not explode.

Astral Body, addtion: the ST cost of making an occult attack is also tripled.

hcobb · 10-02-2018, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Staff III / Staff of Striking (S): ... It is immune to Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells and critical failures.

Will mundane drop weapon effects like another wizard using his own staff with the quarterstaff skill disarm?

The ST 1 cost is a bit steep, but it should encourage wizards to buy the quarterstaff skill.

What is the DX adjustment for striking a target two hexes directly behind the wizard?

Perhaps add a short note that this mundane attack of a traditional wizard's staff is simply to use it as a club(no talent required) for 1d or more?

Chris Goodwin · 10-02-2018, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Zero tripled is still zero cost?

Nope -- Steve gave the occult blast a cost of 1 ST.

Chris Goodwin · 10-02-2018, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

(I anticipate this is the last major issue that I'll deal with before it goes to print. Hopefully it IS the last major issue.)

I agree with some but not all of the criticisms of the Staff system as presented, but realistically, you people are a good focus group, and your feedback indicates that any version of the IQ staff is just going to be houseruled away in a lot of campaigns. That's an argument against writing it like that in the first place.

So here's a mod that tones the staff back to more vanilla systems but keeps some things that make it an antidote to Conan the Wizard . . .

I like all of this a lot better. I might house-rule flip the 1d+2 damage with the free action, but everything about this is better.

(Edited to add: when I was gaming out the "Grumpy vs. Fighter #1" battle, that free action hit, in conjunction with any other action, was super powerful.)

Skarg · 10-02-2018, 06:08 PM

Yes, this is a lot more balanced.

I realize I'm confused about one really important point: If a Wizard wants to learn a higher level of the Staff spell during play, does it cost XP to do so? (And Illusion to 4-hex Illusion etc?) Because these abilities would also be a lot fairer and more interesting with a choice and cost involved.

Even more variety if you could bypass the combat abilities to get the mana abilities.

Like:

Staff
Manastaff (mana to IQ), requires Staff
Staff of Mastery (mana to 2 x IQ, 1d+2 damage, can hurt thieves but doesn't explode), requires Manastaff
- That way, non-combat wizards could save the effort, assuming there IS effort to upgrade.

The combat ones could be separate and just require IQ & Staff so you can pick any/all:
Staff of Piercing (passes armor, requires same IQ as Manastaff)
Staff of Striking (2-hex range, DX +3, immune to drop/break)
Staff of Power (attack is a free action)

10-02-2018, 03:05 PM	#124
Chris Goodwin Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA	Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?) Agreed, yes, we need to know how the new Staff features interact with Astral Projection, but that's by no means the only thing we need to know about the new Staff features. The wording in Astral Projection between Advanced Wizard and new ITL is almost identical. The only substantial change is that in AW it says "...STAFF or STAFF OF POWER spell" where in new ITL it says "...Staff spell". Huh. That would imply that in new ITL, only the basic functions of the Staff spell apply, which means no Manastaff. And no auto-hit. I will still rule that since the "occult blast" costs no ST, it can't be used by an astral figure against the physical realm. (But see also the Blast spell...) __________________ Chris Goodwin I've started a subreddit for discussion of INWO and Illuminati. Check it out!

10-02-2018, 04:48 PM	#126
Steve Jackson President and EIC Join Date: Jul 2004	Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?) (I anticipate this is the last major issue that I'll deal with before it goes to print. Hopefully it IS the last major issue.) I agree with some but not all of the criticisms of the Staff system as presented, but realistically, you people are a good focus group, and your feedback indicates that any version of the IQ staff is just going to be houseruled away in a lot of campaigns. That's an argument against writing it like that in the first place. So here's a mod that tones the staff back to more vanilla systems but keeps some things that make it an antidote to Conan the Wizard . . . ------- Staff (S): This spell is used to make any piece of wood into a staff. ST cost is 5. Unlike other spells, the Staff spells can be learned only by a wizard; the staff is the very mark of wizardry. See p. 148. A wizard does not have to have a staff. If he wants one, he must know the Staff spell to create one. The wizard does not create the staff during play (except to replace a broken one). If he knows the Staff spell, he starts with a staff, without spending any ST to create it. Regardless of what the staff looks like – rod, wand, quarterstaff, etc. – it is an occult weapon that does one die of damage (adjacent hex only) when the wizard points with it. The wizard spends 1 ST and makes a regular die roll to hit. The staff does not have to touch its target in order to deliver its flare of magical energy. You may keep your staff in hand at all times, even when casting spells; it gives no advantage or disadvantage. A staff can be affected by a Drop Weapon or Break Weapon spell. If anyone other than the owner of a staff picks it up against the owner’s will, it explodes, doing the fool who touched it 3 dice damage. A dead wizard’s staff eventually becomes safe to touch. You don’t know when. There are five levels of Staff spell, of increasing power. Each level of Staff is a prerequisite to the next, but the wizard need not “remember” earlier levels of Staff in order to use his highest one, and (for instance) a character who is created with IQ 13 may start with Staff III without buying the lesser versions. Staff II / Manastaff (S): Like the basic Staff, except it now has a Mana stat to let it be charged with ST. By spending XP, the Mana stat can be increased from its starting 0 up to the level of the wizard’s IQ. Only the creator may draw ST from the staff. See The Wizard’s Staff, p. 148. Also, the staff’s occult attack now bypasses the armor or natural defense of its target. Magical defenses such as Stone Flesh still operate. Staff III / Staff of Striking (S): Like Staff II, except that its occult attack may strike a figure two hexes away in any direction from the wizard, and the to-hit roll is made at DX+3. It is immune to Drop Weapon and Break Weapon spells and critical failures. Staff IV / Staff of Power (S): Like Staff III, except the attack is a free action – the wizard may use the staff’s strike while doing anything else, including attacking, running away, or using the staff as a physical weapon. However, if the staff is used as a weapon, its occult strike must be directed at the same target. Staff V / Staff of Mastery (S): Like Staff IV, except that the Mana stat of the staff may be raised, by spending XP, up to twice the wizard’s IQ, and its occult damage is increased to 1d+2. The Staff of Mastery still does 3 dice damage if picked up against the owner’s will, but does not explode. Astral Body, addtion: the ST cost of making an occult attack is also tripled.

10-02-2018, 06:08 PM	#130
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?) Yes, this is a lot more balanced. I realize I'm confused about one really important point: If a Wizard wants to learn a higher level of the Staff spell during play, does it cost XP to do so? (And Illusion to 4-hex Illusion etc?) Because these abilities would also be a lot fairer and more interesting with a choice and cost involved. Even more variety if you could bypass the combat abilities to get the mana abilities. Like: Staff Manastaff (mana to IQ), requires Staff Staff of Mastery (mana to 2 x IQ, 1d+2 damage, can hurt thieves but doesn't explode), requires Manastaff - That way, non-combat wizards could save the effort, assuming there IS effort to upgrade. The combat ones could be separate and just require IQ & Staff so you can pick any/all: Staff of Piercing (passes armor, requires same IQ as Manastaff) Staff of Striking (2-hex range, DX +3, immune to drop/break) Staff of Power (attack is a free action)