Main-Gauche

[VisceralShoe01]

I agree with the first point. But still not sure on your second point..... But it says verbatim on page 13 of melee, "The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4DX. A main-gauche gets 1D-1 in HTH combat. A fighter may not use two daggers, or a main-gauche and dagger, in HTH combat.".... I mean it clearly says dagger or main-gauche gives the one point of protection... But again that is in the melee rules, still not clear if it is changed in ITL. And even if it is wouldn't it sill be up to GM on which rule to use?

[VisceralShoe01]

I also just looked at the weapon table of ITL on page 109. The main-gauche isn't even listed. But it is in melee.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by VisceralShoe01

I also just looked at the weapon table of ITL on page 109. The main-gauche isn't even listed. But it is in melee.

See ITL page 110

[VisceralShoe01]

Ok so in page 111 of ITL, it also says,"The left-hand dagger, or main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes. If you take an attack option, you can also make a separate dagger attack against the same enemy. It is rolled at -4DX. A figure with the Two Weapons talent can fight effectively with a regular weapon in each hand. A person who does not have this talent may attempt the same feat, but his DX will be -6 for each attack, and he gets do defensive advantage." So it seems like, according to ITL, that you would need that talent to get the 1hit protection. And it also says dagger or MG... So idk. But the first part of Left-Hand weapons in ITL pg. 111 and Left-Hand Daggers in Melee pg. 13 is exactly the same. Idk

[VisceralShoe01]

Ok I see now hcobb. So if you go purely by weapon table that makes sense. Also in melee it says the dagger does 1d+2 in HTH while the MG still does it's normal 1d-1. So in that light, I would say that the dagger would not give the 1point of protection as per the table in ITL on page 110, but would still do the 1d+2 damage in HTH as per the table in melee on page 14. So you would give up the extra damage with the dagger in HTH to get the 1 point of protection with the MG... And of course the Daggers can still be thrown... I guess?

[VisceralShoe01]

And the ST modifiers in ITL on page 122 would still apply to both weapons...

[larsdangly]

I agree that it is potentially confusing that the description of the main gauche uses the word dagger, but I really don't think the intent was that you were supposed to interpret that as evidence that a dagger held in your left hand has the properties of a main gauche. They each get their own line in the weapon tables; they differ in cost and weight; and all the technical explanations of how a main gauche work refer to it by its 'proper' name. I'm almost 100 % sure that this was just a case of the author trying to explain the meaning of a possibly unfamiliar word, without considering that this clause might be taken as an 'actionable' rule. It's almost impossible to play TFT coherently unless you understand that the rules have a super precise structure, like a board game, but are not written with the precision of the more technical board game instructions. There is a lot of loose, imprecise language mixed in with the actual rules.

[VisceralShoe01]

I see your point larsdangly, and that does make sense. A lot of people probably don't realize that the MG is basically s short rapier, used mainly for thrusting attacks irl(that is, of course, a simplified description of the weapon). And, like a rapier, the MG is also designed to parry. But I would still use the 1d+2 for the dagger in HTH as per melee rules, and not have the 1 hit protection. That seems like a pretty fair trade off, since a dagger is designed to get up in your grill. While the MG is a slightly longer weapon than your standard dagger. The rules for the 2 weapons talent is still a bit confusing though, is it -6dx for both weapons with out that talent, and then just -4DX for your off hand with the talent?

[hcobb]

Visually MG in TFT is a reference to the dagger with a fancy guard style:

http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c942.html
(one pound)

and not the sword breaker (Assassins Creed style at 12 ounces)

or the Sai (2 pounds)

Compare to a 20 cm long (total length, blade is 3 inches), 90 grams, throwing dagger. (How exactly does this qualify to do a Defend option?)

[larsdangly]

Melee/ITL has a relatively high level of 'versimilitude' as an engine for resolving skirmish combats, but a lot of its more granular details, including the stats for individual weapons, shouldn't be thought of as attempts to accurately represent a specific weapon or piece of armor. All the gear needs to be shoe horned into the trade-space of costs and benefits that define the game, and they don't all have a perfectly good fit. Thus the properties of 'Chainmail' aren't that great of a representation of historical chainmail, but there needs to be a name attached to the item that provides 3 pts of armor in exchange for 3 pts of DX reduction, and 'chainmail' is as good as any. The main gauche is clearly an attempt to abstractly represent a variety of historical off-handed parrying weapons, but it also has to have a mix of traits that don't make it useless or a super-weapon. The end result is one person's idea of what that compromise should look like.