[DF] Mystic Archer Powerups

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Onkl

I couldn't have said it as beatifully as PseudoFenton did here. This is exactly what I think..

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I would build Mystic Archers with the Archer template from Henchmen and the Eldritch initiate lens from Pyramid #3/60

Yeah, those henchmen make for a really good starting blend for basic 250 point characters. This method also gives the added advantage of progressing towards either main profession as you advance, allowing you to bias the archery or the magic as you see fit. It also saves you the effort of forging a new list of power-ups etc, as you can easily transition into the full profession of choice, and then later logically expand into the other to gain access to their power-ups.

The potentially divergent flavour of many of the henchmen professions also lets you ignore both avenues and instead take a U turn mid-progression towards another area of speciality. Which may sound pointless/redundant, but the number of times I've seen players start with one mindset, but then quickly adopt a different role or style once they begin playing a character and "get to know them" is high.

Giving a player as much flexibility and scope for improvement as you can is a very useful thing. Although it isn't too hard to steer away from the core professions if that's what you want to do when levelling, it does seem to be easier to do that when you don't have the touchstone of the professions name hanging over you choices and shaping your thought process. But again, like Antoni, I do have a bias towards henchmen.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Yeah, those henchmen make for a really good starting blend for basic 250 point characters. This method also gives the added advantage of progressing towards either main profession as you advance, allowing you to bias the archery or the magic as you see fit. It also saves you the effort of forging a new list of power-ups etc, as you can easily transition into the full profession of choice, and then later logically expand into the other to gain access to their power-ups.

Don't you run into a similar problem as to what Power-Ups apply to a character created from a Henchman+Lens combo?
The Power-Ups are defined for full 250 point Hero Templates, some of which can be built from different combinations of Henchmen Templates.

An Archer might be a Scout or a Knight (Niche Substitution table, DF15.p5)- which Power-Ups can he use?

How about a Brute+Veteran? can they use Power-Ups for Assassin, Barbarian, or Knight? or maybe Swashbuckler (Veteran) or Unholy Knight (Brute)?

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Don't you run into a similar problem as to what Power-Ups apply to a character created from a Henchman+Lens combo?

Personally? No, but I have my own rules in place to handle multi-classing. To give a brief overview - you can progress into any profession, but doing so generally commits you to that avenue. You can have as many professions as you like, counted as either "full", "half" or "incomplete" - each takes up one 'slot' and the first two slots are free, but afterwards they cost steadily more expensive UBs. You may only ever have one "incomplete" profession at a time, to prevent bleeding into too many professions.

Henchmen templates/lenses are basically half professions, acting as either a bolt-on for extra versatility, or feeding into a more specialised profession/s. If you do the latter you just level up towards the complete template of your chosen profession (transitioning the henchmen profession into a full profession). The multi-class lenses in DF3 are the same as Henchmen, but are much more narrowly focused and clearly intended for adding to full professions (where as exotic races and lower point characters are better to start with Henchmen or multi-classed Henchmen).

Once you've acquired enough abilities and attributes to count as a "full" profession (and have paid the UB cost if there are any) you can get any of that professions Power-ups. As henchmen don't have access to power-ups anyway, they basically serve as a neat package to improve yourself and either be swapped for or act as a stepping stone towards the professions which will give power-ups. There's a little more to it, but ultimately the idea is that you can diversify as much as you like - but the overheads become steadily more costly, making it harder to fill too many niche at once with access to power-ups. Although overly broad generalists can spread out into lots of half templates and gather up a huge variety of skills and abilities - but obviously at the cost of not having as many shiny specialist's toys, which is (imo) how it should be.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Personally? No, but I have my own rules in place to handle multi-classing. To give a brief overview - you can progress into any profession, but doing so generally commits you to that avenue. You can have as many professions as you like, counted as either "full", "half" or "incomplete" - each takes up one 'slot' and the first two slots are free, but afterwards they cost steadily more expensive UBs. You may only ever have one "incomplete" profession at a time, to prevent bleeding into too many professions.
...

That seems like quite a lot of house rules, and complexity.
How do you define what traits qualify you for each level (incomplete/half/full) for a given profession 'slot'?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting this isn't a perfectly good and workable mechanism, especially with the great Henchmen/Lens choices.

However, given we've gotten here from whether a Mystic Archer (a [0 point] Lens on the Scout Template) can use Scout Power-Ups, and do they invade the Scout Niche - your rules seem to add a lot more complexity that would be needed those questions - and in fact your rules probably make a Mystic Archer a Half-Scout/Half-Imbuement-Guy anyway?

[Kromm]

If your aim is to play DF as close to "the rules as written" as possible, then the knot is cut by what the rules actually say:

Adding New Abilities (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level, pp. 42-43): "Power-Ups: Treat power-ups (p. 38) as part of the relevant template for delvers who start their career in that profession. Lenses don't allow power-ups." Thus, once a scout, always a scout, and you have to buy scout power-ups. This is optionally mitigated by Changing Professions (p. 42).

Professional Power-Ups (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 11: Power-Ups, p. 17): "Thus, these power-ups are meant for delvers who start their career in a profession. The GM may elect to make a few available to adventurers who purchase lenses from The Next Level, or even to anyone . . . but that should involve a quest reward, if not a wish."

However, Power-Ups Revisited (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen, p. 41) offers the player the option of picking power-ups that match either the character's base template or an add-on lens, and sticking with that choice forever once made. That would be my personal recommendation here. Mystic archers amount to scout-mystic knights, and I'd let the player decide whether to go with scout power-ups or mystic knight power-ups, and then lock in that decision forever after. Of course, the GM may prefer to build a custom power-ups list that blends the two; see Power-Ups for Henchmen (Henchmen, p. 11).

Do remember that all of the above sources explicitly allow choices of abilities from the base templates associated with both professions of a character like this. Limits are on post-template power-ups – the cool abilities available only with points earned in play. For instance, a barbarian-wizard is restricted to barbarian power-ups unless the GM permits the player to switch to wizard power-ups in lieu of those or creates a blended barbarian-wizard power-ups list . . . but in all of those cases, the player can spend earned points on anything on the basic barbarian template or the basic wizard template.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by SCAR

That seems like quite a lot of house rules, and complexity.
How do you define what traits qualify you for each level (incomplete/half/full) for a given profession 'slot'?

...

However, given we've gotten here from whether a Mystic Archer ...

Its technically just one ruling, and one house rule.
The first is a ruling from the question "what happens when I multi-class", that basically was "you can multi-class as much as you like, but you need to meet the minimum requirements for if you had started as that profession to get the second professions power-ups".
The house rule comes about from the realisation that once you've passed a certain point, its very very easy to technically count as a multitude of other professions, or at least can do so with incredibly little investment. As this would pretty much undermine the premise of niche protection of power-ups, I ruled that each addition profession you multi-class into costs steadily more UB. That's pretty much it, everything else is just to identify piecemeal progression and lenses rather than full investment that actually grant power-ups.

I hadn't intended to give any additional solution for the whole Mystic Archer thing (I already weighed in on that) other than to point out that henchmen lenses are a good alternative if you so desire.

EDIT: After seeing Kromms highlighting of the rules above, I notice that technically it's two house rules - but only because I allowed multi-classing before I had DF3 to use those rules, so I had to make a ruling on it before I had the 'official' ones.

I had originally changed my game over from d&d, where certain characters were very clearly multi-classed, it seemed more appropriate once I did get DF3 to allow for more scope when levelling into other professions. Considering we're almost at a 500cp average now, its worked out quite well and has allowed a fun blend of powers.

Ultimately, as others have pointed out, this is GURPS - and with so many alternate and optional rules you might want to toggle and try, as well as the (fairly common, seemingly) practice of taking a pre-built package like DF and expanding it with other elements... well it aint surprising you quickly get into 'eye-balling' territory. I mean, the Mystic Knight and Archer are (as far as I'm aware) still technically not even 'canon' within the DF line (as they're all from pyramid articles) so we're already into speculation and conjuncture by this point.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

I disagree here. I don't mind people spreading out into other domains rather than their primary one to shore up missing elements within a group - but throwing a professions niche protection out the window simply because no one in the group is currently that profession is bad form.

It is not exactly uncommon for new characters to join an adventuring party, especially when they've suffered deaths within the party or members voluntarily leave for greener and less dangerous pastures. It is therefore important to keep those fences between the professions shticks in place, as someone might want a change of pace and choose a profession previously unaccounted for within the group.

Yeah, I can see what you're saying... I just don't agree with penalizing a current PC based on the possibility that someone else might decide to make an overlapping character at some time in the future. Privileging possibilities over certainties tends to end up in outcomes where no one is really happy.

Also in part because, just like during initial character creation, the player can make the conscious choice to create a character who fills a completely empty niche in the party, or one who overlaps with an existing PC in some way. And of course, not all overlap is bad ... having a party with two awesome archers isn't going to ruin anything, any more than a party with both a Knight and a Swashbuckler will, as long as each one has a few abilities the other doesn't. In the case of the Scout and Mystic Archer, the overlap is "awesome archery," the difference is wilderness skills vs. magical abilities.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

This is not to say wizards can't learn to use a bow, or even get very good at using one. It just means that unless the wizard also dedicates their time to master the broader arts of the quintessential Scout, they're not getting access to any of the Scouts personal toys.

I think the question technically leaves out that "unless" ... as I read the RAW, Professional Power-ups are chosen from one and only one template's list, determined by the character's primary character template chosen at creation. So that means Mr. Wizard-Archer can never gain access to the Scout's Professional Power-Ups, even if he ends up buying the entire Scout template with earned points.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

I think these two quotes underline the common miss-assumptions that surround the term "niche protection" (or at least, the way I interpret that term).

Niche protection is not a huge wall that keeps everyone else out of "your stuff" and applies to anything you might even vaguely do or the style in which you do it. Niche protection doesn't lock you in to the first singular profession you pick like an anchor, preventing you from broadening your skill set. Niche protection is basically just a way of calling dibs of a handful of specific and defining elements within a profession, which require the other baggage of said profession to master.

From RAW (DF11, p. 17):
"Every Dungeon Fantasy template effectively has hidden features that grant access to capabilities that are off-limits to most people while excluding traits that are normally accessible to anyone. For instance, the wizard template doesn’t list the Fit advantage; therefore, Fit isn’t a standard wizard power-up, despite being quite mundane.
[...]
"Thus,these power-ups are meant for delvers who start their career in a profession."

So it's not a misinterpretation of the RAW to assume that niche protection is intended to create some walls ... our group generally chooses to implement it differently, but that's explicitly a house rule on our part.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

A 750 point character who has fully invested in Wizard and Knight can feel free to pick up any power-up from either profession (assuming they meet the other prerequisites, that is). However despite being a fighter who uses magic, that even sort of sounds like 'Mystic Knight' if you squint a little, they can't pick up any Mystic Knight power-ups until they purchase all the trimmings and trappings of that profession too.

That's much closer to how I play it, but again, it's contrary to RAW.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Part of the issue with the Mystic Archer, is that they start out as a Scout Lens, so it's easy to assume they're a Scout who can use Imbuements.

While they're based on a Scout, they're not a complete Scout:
..a normal scout who doesn't focus their attention on wilderness and survival skills, but purely on archery..

Agreed. Although it's not explicit, it was intended that they dispense with the Scout's wilderness-oriented abilities (including Power-Ups), but not the archery-related ones.

Originally Posted by Onkl

We try to play DF as close to RAW as possible because everybody in the group GMs... we rotate this task so everyone gets to play for 6-8 weeks and then gms for 2-4 weeks.

Whenever we stray from RAW, we as a group must all be in accordance with these changes, or the changing GM thingy won't work. Before I even allow a Mythic Anything, all the gms (and thus all the players) have to be ok with introducing Imbuements into the campaign world.

Sure, that's totally understandable, especially for a group with rotating GMs.

Originally Posted by Onkl

Also, we have a lot of people joining and leaving our game all the time. And I want the Scout - as a class - to still be a strong contender... and not an afterthought à la:"You want to play ranged damage? You must choose a mythic archer... the Scout? No... it's just a version of the Mythic Archer without all the magic gimmicks, thus weaker"

Well, that's already going to be the case ... as far as raw damage-dealing and general combat effectiveness, the Scout is eclipsed by the Mystic Archer, even if he has all of the archery-related power-ups, and the M.A. only has Imbuements. The Scout spends a lot of points on being good at wilderness skills, so that's unquestionably part of his niche as well.

Originally Posted by Onkl

While this thread really is good, it also assumes that the Mystic Archer can take all the Scout Powerups... and that I don't want.

Not all ... I'd filter out the wilderness ones.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Onkl, the question here is what makes the mystic archer special. It's his skill with the bow (1)? It's being able to Imbue (2)? It's blending archery and Imbuements (3)?

If 1, then he gets Scout Power-Ups only.
If 2, then he gets Mystic Knight Power-Ups only.
If 3, then you must come with a list that has a little from both lists.

I didn't write the Mystic Archer and Mystic Swordsman, so I can only guess on the original author's intentions. My point of view is that he's an Imbuement user first, and an archer second. This means that he should get Mystic Knight Power-Ups. You don't need Scout Power-Ups to be a competent Archer. Heroic Archer already lets you do a lot of the tricks scouts do. Scouts do them better, but Mystic Archers have other goodies.

I'm the author, and my intention was actually somewhat reversed from that ... the Mystic Knight is an Imbuer first and foremost, whereas the Mystic Archer is an archer first, who uses magic (Imbuements) to support his archery.

So if I were to write an official list of power-ups, it would be Option 3... most or all of the Scout's archery abilities, with none of the wilderness ones, and a few selected from the Mystic Knight list. In fact, I think I said in the article to add Energy Reserve and Eldritch Talent to the template's list ... I should have also said to drop the irrelevant ones.

Likewise with the Mystic Swordsman ... the list would be similar to the Swashbuckler's, but get rid of the ones that require Luck (which is no longer a core part of the template), and add a few Imbuement-related ones (though not enough to totally eclipse the Mystic Knight, whose primary focus is Imbuements).

Originally Posted by SCAR

Don't you run into a similar problem as to what Power-Ups apply to a character created from a Henchman+Lens combo?
The Power-Ups are defined for full 250 point Hero Templates, some of which can be built from different combinations of Henchmen Templates.

An Archer might be a Scout or a Knight (Niche Substitution table, DF15.p5)- which Power-Ups can he use?

How about a Brute+Veteran? can they use Power-Ups for Assassin, Barbarian, or Knight? or maybe Swashbuckler (Veteran) or Unholy Knight (Brute)?

Agreed. That's why our house rule is that Professional Power-Ups are available to anyone who has all of the manditory traits (minimum attributes & 2ndaries, and all required advantages, disads, and skills) of a template. Which, from the look of things, is how many others also interpret it.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by CousinX

Agreed. That's why our house rule is that Professional Power-Ups are available to anyone who has all of the manditory traits (minimum attributes & 2ndaries, and all required advantages, disads, and skills) of a template. Which, from the look of things, is how many others also interpret it.

Note that this isn't really a house rule so much as an optional-but-published rule; see Changing Professions (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level, p. 42).

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Note that this isn't really a house rule so much as an optional-but-published rule; see Changing Professions (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level, p. 42).

Heh, oh yeah, there is it. Someone (quite possibly me) must have read that and subconsciously incorporated into our "house/optional rules in use" ... and then promptly forgotten where it came from.