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Old 12-02-2021, 09:40 AM   #11
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Yep, that's more-or-less the idea, although I came to it in a different fashion.



Nope - as you suspected later, the Golems are just gear. I haven't decided how they'll be referred to in the setting, but you essentially have several tiers of them - those that are comparable to DtG Novices (so [62] points), those comparable to Journeymen ([125]), those comparable to Masters ([187]), those comparable to Veterans ([250]), and possibly those that are still more powerful. Although I may end up bumping those up a bit to more readily allow for different builds (the equivalent of racial templates) and/or a bit of boosting.



I haven't yet decided what determines if someone can ride a Golem, but I do know some degree of training is required. In a campaign where you can have PC's who can't ride Golems, I'd make Golem Rider an Advantage, probably eyeballing it around [25] (which makes it appropriate as an Upgrade Package in Delvers to Grow)... or make not being able to ride a Golem be a Disadvantage worth [-25]; either way, this covers both the training and any X-factor that is required to be a competent Golem Rider. That doesn't matter for the first campaign I intend to run in the setting, as part of the premise is that all the characters aren't just capable of riding Golems, they actually start out with Golems of their own.

However, Golem Rider would very much be a binary trait - either you have it and can use any Golem Seed you get your grubby little mitts on - be it some weakling [0] version or a godlike [5000] version (assuming either of those exist... they probably don't) - or you don't have it, and Golem Seeds are useless to you. I haven't decided what a Golem Seed would be worth, but I don't think I would want a character with Very Wealthy (the maximum you're able to start with in DF) to be able to afford to upgrade his right out of the gate. That does imply they're worth quite a great deal, which means if/when I have them acquire (via defeating the rogue Golem(s) containing them*) newer, better Golem Seeds, I'll need some reason why they can't get fantastically wealthy by selling off their old Seeds.

*EDIT: It occurs to me I may have a solution here, based on a combination of sumptuary laws and licensing. Golems themselves aren't terribly expensive, but you generally cannot purchase one of a given level unless you have the right to possess one of that level. Nobles of a certain rank (Status in GURPS terms... which DF conveniently doesn't make available), and royals, have such a right. Someone of insufficient Status can gain it, either by purchasing an appropriate noble rank (which is terribly expensive, and requires official approval... which itself is generally rather expensive via gifts/bribes) or - and here the PC's come into play - by acquiring one through lawful deeds of arms, such as defeating one in a dungeon, on the battlefield, or in a lawful duel (ambushing a Golem being ridden by someone else to steal it won't work here... unless you already have the right to own such a Golem).
A pretty thorough worked example of something very similar to what you are proposing can be found on Mailanka's Psi-Wars Wiki.
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Old 12-02-2021, 01:00 PM   #12
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
I don't get it: are those "Golems" Pokemons, so they have personalities, physiology, are able to improve, evolve and eventually die...
Or power armors: that you can thinker, disassemble, store indefinitely.
Are they animals, plants? Minerals? Magical? Natural?
Magical in nature (and unaging, if it matters), not improving (although there may be an option to upgrade them, for money), and they don't have personalities of their own - although those riding them may experience shifts in their own personalities while doing so (do to loss/gain of various mental Advantages/Disadvantages).

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
And from a Player point of view: what impedes me to create a very feeble PC and to reinvest all the points in a vast array of Golems to fit any situation?
The fact that you aren't allowed to. GM (me) has final say when it comes to a character, so if you create a PC who doesn't fit the campaign premise (experienced, competent delvers teleoperating golems), I'm not going to let it in.

That said, if a player opts to make a wealthy character who has a backup Golem (or maybe a couple, I haven't decided how much they'd cost yet), that can be an option. Golems are meant to be able to be modified to fit the situation, anyway, so "have a different Golem for each situation" isn't that big of an advantage.

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
I mean the idea is cool, but for a light combat hex- crawler I would go full anime: golems as ancient things coming from who-knows and dug up from the ground like fossils (Eureka 7) that once "awakened" by specialists from a guild (so you have all the restrictions and code of honors you want) can be "primed" to gifted individuals and summoned as required (Guyver) but they have a will and personality of their own that can clash with the host (Evangelion).
Many Golem Seeds are indeed ancient, and are acquired by defeating the containing Golem in combat. But, then you need them to be incredibly common or they become effectively priceless, and I want them to be, while not cheap, certainly be something a delver of means can scrape together enough funds to replace (in case of an irrecoverable loss). Making it so they can be produced, albeit at fairly high cost, prevents them from being commonplace but still be something a delver could conceivably afford to replace.

A Golem that has some vestige of its own will - perhaps even from a previous Rider who came to a bad end* - could be interesting. I don't think I'd allow such to function on their own, but they could interfere with (or assist) their current Rider. That could make for an interesting Disadvantage (or Advantage), but I'm not sure how I'd implement it.

*If someone's real body dies while they are Riding a Golem, the Golem will retain the rider's personality and memories... for a bit. As a character, said Golem would have Delusion: I am [Rider], believing itself to be the original Rider's mind and soul transported into the Golem. It wouldn't take long for the Golem's personality to deviate from the original, and typically within a month or so, it would be indistinguishable from any "wild" Golem... but for some Riders with particularly strong wills, some vestige of the original personality would remain. Typically, even this would be destroyed if the Golem is, and nothing would remain in the Seed left over.

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
I don't know, i find the whole "combat drone like" idea quite bland: dungeon delving with no risk, no drama, no blood and with only a negligible economic loss as stake doesn't sounds right.
I should note this idea initially came to me when considering a way to make DF kid-friendly without giving up interesting combat options (I assume many parents wouldn't be happy about Little Timmy playing make-believe wherein he slit throats, shot arrows through eyeballs, etc). My first thought was to take the same approach as the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon (and subsequent games), making the enemies all robots - or, rather, relatively-fragile (no notable Injury Tolerance) golems, this being Fantasy. But then the PC's might be subjected to ultraviolence in a losing fight, so what if the actual PC's were teleoperating their own golems? That struck me as potentially an interesting idea for more "mature" DF, and here we are.

Of course, if increasing the stakes is necessary, that's readily doable - actually losing a Golem Seed (to say nothing of the gear one may have equipped the Golem with) is a pretty significant financial loss, so if the Golem party suffers a TPK, the Riders - being competent delvers themselves - are rather likely to go once more into the fray, personally, to at the very least recover the Seeds.

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Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
I feel like one way to play with this setting would be to have the focus on the golems, in much the same way a mecha setting focuses on the mecha.

[snip]
This all sounds awesome for a serious setting but... that's not really what I'm going for. The fact Golems can be replaced (albeit at moderately-high expense), and the fact characters can actually repair and reuse the Cores (I think I'm going to go with that over Seeds, after all) in the field is a central part of the concept - I want Golems to get wrecked and have to be replaced relatively-rapidly during play. Encounters will frequently involve the loss of a Golem or two, then either the surviving Golems will bring the damaged Cores back to the delvers' surface camp or the delvers will make their way down into the dungeon to make new Golems (and repair the survivors - with Cores being fairly cheap and quick to repair, surviving Golems should be even cheaper - possibly free, using up none of the repair materials the delvers brought with them - and quicker to repair).

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
A pretty thorough worked example of something very similar to what you are proposing can be found on Mailanka's Psi-Wars Wiki.
I'll give that a closer look, but it sounds more like powered armor than teleoperated drones. Of course, a particularly adventurous and interprising Delver might work out a way to make something like that with a Core, but I don't think I'll allow that in the first, more simplistic campaign.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:06 AM   #13
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Encounters will frequently involve the loss of a Golem or two, then either the surviving Golems will bring the damaged Cores back to the delvers' surface camp or the delvers will make their way down into the dungeon to make new Golems (and repair the survivors - with Cores being fairly cheap and quick to repair, surviving Golems should be even cheaper - possibly free, using up none of the repair materials the delvers brought with them - and quicker to repair).
Having GMed a lot of DF, I can tell you that in my experience it's pretty hard to engineer a combat in which one or two characters may die but a TPK is less likely. Typically, once you're in a situation where a PC dies, the rest of the party is in deep shi...err...trouble.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:29 AM   #14
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Having GMed a lot of DF, I can tell you that in my experience it's pretty hard to engineer a combat in which one or two characters may die but a TPK is less likely. Typically, once you're in a situation where a PC dies, the rest of the party is in deep shi...err...trouble.
Sounds like it will be good learning for an inexperienced GM such as myself. One of the advantages I'm expecting of my approach is that, at least early on (while they'll likely be making Golems at Novice- or maybe Journeyman-level), when I end up accidentally causing a TPK, the actual characters (who are Veteran-level) will be readily capable of liberating the Cores (going down into the dungeon and taking out whatever destroyed the Golem). It does mean (temporary) loss of a Golem or two will be more rare than I'd prefer, but that's acceptable.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:02 AM   #15
Opellulo
 
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Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I should note this idea initially came to me when considering a way to make DF kid-friendly without giving up interesting combat options (I assume many parents wouldn't be happy about Little Timmy playing make-believe wherein he slit throats, shot arrows through eyeballs, etc). My first thought was to take the same approach as the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon (and subsequent games), making the enemies all robots - or, rather, relatively-fragile (no notable Injury Tolerance) golems, this being Fantasy. But then the PC's might be subjected to ultraviolence in a losing fight, so what if the actual PC's were teleoperating their own golems? That struck me as potentially an interesting idea for more "mature" DF, and here we are.
Now I remember why this sounded familiar: it's the basic idea behind the "Warframe" videogame. Its lore is complex and way convoluted but the TL/DR version is that Warframes are retro-futuristic techno-organic battlesuits that are tele-operated in dreams by a bunch of gifted children that forgot they were asleep.
Their design and powers are based around a concept (fire, water, teleport, speed, necromancy, void) and they can be upgraded, modified, tinkered, disabled and even disassembled without physically harm the operator...

It makes sense... Even if I see a big setting problem: if such technology is reproducible (even if in difficult ways) then it will be widespread in short time: why use oxen and horses if golems are way stronger and don't require maintenance? So you have to set an arbitrary limit on its use that goes beyond the monetary cost: maybe only few people can attune to them or the way to do that is a Guild secret etc...
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Last edited by Opellulo; 12-03-2021 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:53 AM   #16
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [DF] Golem Riders - a campaign idea

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
Now I remember why this sounded familiar: it's the basic idea behind the "Warframe" videogame. Its lore is complex and way convoluted but the TL/DR version is that Warframes are retro-futuristic techno-organic battlesuits that are tele-operated in dreams by a bunch of gifted children that forgot they were asleep.
Their design and powers are based around a concept (fire, water, teleport, speed, necromancy, void) and they can be upgraded, modified, tinkered, disabled and even disassembled without physically harm the operator...
I've actually played a bit of that (was one of the free games on PS Plus), but had no idea that was going on with it.

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
It makes sense... Even if I see a big setting problem: if such technology is reproducible (even if in difficult way) they it will be widespread in short time: why use oxen and horses if golem are way stronger and don't require maintenance? So you have to set an arbitrary limit on its use that goes beyond cost: maybe only few people can attune to them or the way to do that is a Guild secret etc...
Well, one arbitrary limit is that you must have the legal right to own one, and someone who has that is going to be disinclined to perform such menial tasks, even using a different body than their own (Golems lack an autopilot feature). The next is that one needs fairly extensive training to be able to configure and Ride a Golem. I have not yet decided if there's any x-factor (born under the right stars, having the right genetic makeup, etc) that is necessary for one to be able to Ride in the first place, or if training alone will suffice. I may handle it similarly to how I intend to handle the x-factor needed for being an adventurer in my Oubliette* setting (basically, having Quintessence at or above 8 - human average is around a 5) - most people who have it are born with it and can further improve it through training, but a particularly driven individual can spontaneously manifest it, even if he or she weren't born with it.

*Which I've decided to put the design for on-hold until I get some actual experience running some games. Also, taking inspiration from the way the monsters in the Norđlondr Óvinabókin (Nordland Bestiary) are designed would be worthwhile.
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