Cards you want to see

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

The Bumper Trigger <deep breath> is an awesome concept that is AWFUL for 6e. It is our most-often-cited example of the "fun-for-one" problem. There is no limit to the number of weapons I can equip to my car, so I put ten rockets on the front and can fire all of them at once at the same target, outside of my combat phase. We have tested dozens of ideas for this for six years and that testing just confirmed that it is overpowered, unfair, favors turn order, adds bookkeeping, and makes the victims hate the game. It's a bad idea, it's not happening, and this is not an invite for anyone to argue or tell me or any other SJG staff how to fix it.

That all said, the extra crew member *is* a thing we're exploring, but not as an extra attack, which unbalances the game on a fundamental level. That's equivalent to getting an extra half-turn every combat phase, making it a must-buy item that becomes the default way that everyone plays. We will not be doing it that way, but we've been discussing other fun ways to make it work.

Honestly, we've already made everything else in some form or fashion except for the sunroof (unless you want to count Whiplash). It's just reserved for later releases, so you haven't seen those items yet.

I get your bumper trigger points. I would think that there might be a way to make it work. Perhaps making it part of a single shot weapon (the six shooter perhaps) that triggers when a collision occurs on that side. Keep the damage moderate, but making it a single shot collision boost might be interesting (and able to be balanced against the damage boost). (Sorry, I can't help it, the creative gamer / software problem solver in me had to post it).

FWIW, I would think that there's a price point where an extra crew member becomes reasonable. One thought to experiment with might be to make a hybrid crew/vehicle cost card. You could even make it a proportion of the vehicle's entire crew/vehicle point budget.


Does that general "all of these" include making driver/gunner cards for the characters from ADQ? I actually really like the notion of having crew who have some background. Might also help increase the sales of the ADQ fiction compilation.

[beetle496]

Hmm, I am not seeing any compelling reason to bring back bumper triggers.

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

FWIW, I would think that there's a price point where an extra crew member becomes reasonable. One thought to experiment with might be to make a hybrid crew/vehicle cost card. You could even make it a proportion of the vehicle's entire crew/vehicle point budget.

I agree that this is interesting to think about. I am kind of fascinated how a Gunner was really not a good investment in OG CW, but with 6e I would pay 4+ BP for a second Gunner. Having the different ‘currencies’ really flips the script!

Does that general "all of these" include making driver/gunner cards for the characters from ADQ? I actually really like the notion of having crew who have some background. Might also help increase the sales of the ADQ fiction compilation.

+1 for this idea. I am also looking for suggestions for how amateur Drivers/Gunners might survive past their first several arena battles to start gaining experience and fame? I guess it does not have to be case that Power Plant explodes when it hits 0? The pros can afford Gold Cross of course, but that does not help a starting player character.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by beetle496

I am kind of fascinated how a Gunner was really not a good investment in OG CW, but with 6e I would pay 4+ BP for a second Gunner.

Given 6E's focus on "if it doesn't cause damage to the opponent, block damage from the opponent, or make the car move more effectively": I am unsurprised "more firing opportunities" is suddenly a Big Deal. Something I experimented with way-back-when (pre-NOVA, even) was: Like Martial Arts, having a sufficiently-high Gunner (or related -- HG; Bow; etc.) skill would allow the character an additional "firing action" each turn (but still only one per phase).

How might this affect the game? Consider the _Hammer_ midsize -- VMG in turret, two RRs forward, one crew. A driver with two FAs could fire the RRs at a target in one phase, then in the next phase follow-in with the VMG. Of course, to have that high a Gunner skill, he'd need to slough off some other skills.... >;)

[Sam Mitschke]

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>> Not discussing the Bumper Trigger. <<
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The extra crew member is feasible, but it's difficult to balance using the current in-game currency because, by design, there is a greater return on lower-cost weapons per BP spent. Let's look at an example:

1) At 3BP, firing three 1BP Light Recoilless Rifles yields an average of 5 hits.

2) At the same 3BP, firing one 2BP Standard Recoilless Rifle AND one 1BP Light Recoilless Rifle yields an average of 4.17 hits.

This math scales up similarly with higher-BP builds, meaning you will *always* choose to take three attacks.

Reducing the BP by 1 for the player with three crew is not enough to offset the imbalance, and reducing it by 2 is too much. The Stability Controller tells you that 1BP=1CP, so swapping that currency makes no difference. We're forced to use currencies with highly-situational values (ace/control tokens, game mechanic changes, etc), and/or to outright ban a lot of specific weapons. That drains the fun out of the game and risks introducing game-breaking exploits.

I don't believe a third attack adds enough to the game to justify fixing the problems with it...but as I said earlier, we have several ideas on how extra crew can work. I don't yet trust that it can work well, though, and the testing for cycles — which is far from done — is also informing some of these decisions.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

The extra crew member is feasible, but it's difficult to balance using the current in-game currency because, by design, there is a greater return on lower-cost weapons per BP spent. Let's look at an example:

1) At 3BP, firing three 1BP Light Recoilless Rifles yields an average of 5 hits.

2) At the same 3BP, firing one 2BP Standard Recoilless Rifle AND one 1BP Light Recoilless Rifle yields an average of 4.17 hits.

This math scales up similarly with higher-BP builds, meaning you will *always* choose to take three attacks.

Reducing the BP by 1 for the player with three crew is not enough to offset the imbalance, and reducing it by 2 is too much. The Stability Controller tells you that 1BP=1CP, so swapping that currency makes no difference. We're forced to use currencies with highly-situational values (ace/control tokens, game mechanic changes, etc), and/or to outright ban a lot of specific weapons. That drains the fun out of the game and risks introducing game-breaking exploits.

I don't believe a third attack adds enough to the game to justify fixing the problems with it...but as I said earlier, we have several ideas on how extra crew can work. I don't yet trust that it can work well, though, and the testing for cycles — which is far from done — is also informing some of these decisions.

I'd argue that, despite the Stability Controller (which can convert a single point), CP are really worth more than BP. Partly because you have a smaller pool of them to work with and no upper cap on what you can get. Your example also neglects to consider the effects that crew members gain when they are using those weapons. Particularly crew which grant extra damage dice. Having to make do with less capable gunners generally means less damage. Not to mention that the bonuses are usable on any weapon.

That said, I think that the key might be to reduce your overall BP (and/or CP) by a ratio to step the weapons that can be afforded down somewhat (with a minimum of a 1 BP reduction). Yes, someone could splurge all-out on weapons, but that means they will be skimping elsewhere.

(Incidentally, the Stability Controller is almost always on my list of must-have items when the budget hits a certain point.)

[Magesmiley]

Heh, heh, heh.

I just had a notion of a way to add a 3rd character firing action that would let it be based on the cost of the weapons. We have turret versions of weapons, why not add Cupola versions of weapons as well?

Incorporate the cost of the cupola gunner into the cost of the cupola weapon.

Limit the cupola gunner to only firing the weapon in the cupola (and possibly sidearms), not being able to drive the car, and make the character otherwise like a gunner.

That allows the weapon's effectiveness of not needing a firing action to be tunable to the specific weapon in the cupola.

[Sam Mitschke]

@MageSmiley
I used the simple comparison using the Stability Controller in my example, but a crew member's value is widely variable based on circumstance, and may be more valuable, less valuable, or equal to BP equivalent to their CP. That means that CP is not a currency we can reliably use to balance anything other than other crew members. Definitely not when the game-breaking element — a third attack — only requires a butt in a chair and 0BP crew members exist.

Now, as for your comments about the cupola...hmm. I'm not gonna say that I'd do it by making a completely new card type that functions the way we want and can be balanced using it's own internal currency, but I'm also not gonna say it's not how I may or may not already be doing it (because that's how we intended expansion elements to work). I'm definitely not saying anything of the sort. ;-)

[PresidentTwoeagles]

Why have bumper triggers? Just equip the Flame Jets and the guaranteed stress you give your opponent in the next turn (if used strategically) is much more fun than any automatic damage could be.

[NexusGameTheory]

Multiple Crew Cards thoughts...

In our league rules, we are treating the driver and gunner cards as "skills" not as separate people.

So over the league, you can have several gunner cards, but that just represents one gunner with several skills.

It means we preserve the "two attacks' and the 3+3 (generally) durability of the crew.

I am really not sure how broken this will get overtime. There is a part of me that is kind of eagerly looking forward to what kind of "brokenness" can be created by our group's players as they start "stacking" crew cards. :D

I welcome any creative suggestions on ways to keep this from being too broken or ways to REALLY break it?

Broadly, I have always liked the idea of naming the crew members and then seeing them get experience and get better over time. This multiple stacking of crew cards helps scratch that itch for me and my players.

Are there any thoughts on how to let the "crew get experience" over time?

[PresidentTwoeagles]

At the end of a game, surviving crew members get N crew points that they can spend on their crew card, gear, or sidearms and that crew member is healed up for the next game. If that crew member dies (so no "unconscious" state), the points reset. You could also give points for feats like a perfect speed 5 D4, or a max damage roll on a decently-sized weapons, etc.

Or, [suggested by HeatDeath] surviving crew members get special ace tokens that they can use to re-roll a maneuver die or attack, depending on the type of crew member. Once spent, you have to re-earn them.

Surviving to the next game makes crew cards to mitigate crew damage much more attractive. Mmmmm, tacos...