Clarification on multiple fire/explosion wrench results

[Sam Mitschke]

@43Supporter
Much appreciated. Genuinely. A lot of effort went into creating a system where "Can I do this?" questions at the table could almost universally be answered with a simple "Yes." Whenever we felt an answer had to be "No," that stuff got tested to an extra-tedious death just to be sure we couldn't find a "Yes" hidden away in some dark corner.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

A lot of effort went into creating a system where "Can I do this?" questions at the table could almost universally be answered with a simple "Yes." Whenever we felt an answer had to be "No," that stuff got tested to an extra-tedious death just to be sure we couldn't find a "Yes" hidden away in some dark corner.

Oddly, I come at it from the other direction, so to speak.

One of my "hobbies" is Rules -- I spend a lot of time reading the rules packages for "weekend warrior" short-tracks. One rule I often see: "If it doesn't say 'you can', then you Can't." Puts a stop to the Rules-Lawyers right-quick. :)

As to "game-breaking": One mentions the APPR -- I never saw anyone use it; that was cost, weight, and space which could be put to more-generally-destructive items. 4d6 internal will kill a power plant *far* more effectively than just shorting the thing out, *and* can be used to destroy other things (never mind those D4-5 hazards ensuing). :)

I think that was where OG CW went wrong -- too many items which weren't really useful outside one edge-case instance. One of my last events before NOVA threw me out, someone brought a Div. 5 car with Vehicular Shotguns. VSGs existed solely to provide Worlds cars with a means of inflicting "vehicular damage" to the targets which had replaced "shooting at other cars" in the event; apart from that, a VSG couldn't even reliably take out a Div. 5 duelcar (and definitely not my metal-armor _INS_-series cars :) ). Or the infamous "Armored Beer Refrigerator" -- why not give Mini-Safes a refrigerator option? But that's just my feeling on it.

[Sam Mitschke]

I guess a more accurate way to say it is that we tried to set it up so that the question doesn't often come up because the basic tools we provide make it intuitive to just...do...most anything you can think of.

And we've really tried to avoid making items that have no value. There isn't anything that's definitively a bad buy. Even silly things like the Armored Beer Refrigerator and the Taco, or stranger concepts like the Radar Transmitter can be put to good use with certain builds or play styles.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

…someone brought a Div. 5 car with Vehicular Shotguns.

Sorry, I think I missed the lesson here. Was this an example where a novice accidentally built a useless car? Because useless weapons were on the menu, and your point is that having VSG available was counter-productive?

Speaking of which, where is the plain old regular shotgun? I have linked shotguns and a turreted shotgun.

Or the infamous "Armored Beer Refrigerator" -- why not give Mini-Safes a refrigerator option?

I understand you to be saying that the one too silly for your tastes. Do you agree that both were broken damage sinks?

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

And we've really tried to avoid making items that have no value. There isn't anything that's definitively a bad buy.

Thank you, and I agree.

Even silly things like the Armored Beer Refrigerator and the Taco, or stranger concepts like the Radar Transmitter can be put to good use with certain builds or play styles.

I appreciate that, with all three of these, each required my full attention to connect the name to the game effect. I also appreciate that the buff-to-BP ratio is good enough to not dismiss them, but also not so OP as to be part of every build. This characteristic holds for most accessories and upgrades! It is very nice design.

[NexusGameTheory]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

I guess a more accurate way to say it is that we tried to set it up so that the question doesn't often come up because the basic tools we provide make it intuitive to just...do...most anything you can think of.

And we've really tried to avoid making items that have no value. There isn't anything that's definitively a bad buy. Even silly things like the Armored Beer Refrigerator and the Taco, or stranger concepts like the Radar Transmitter can be put to good use with certain builds or play styles.

One of the things I love about the work you put into the cards was that it is nearly impossible, or at least very hard, for someone to make a car that isn't "viable".

Before our last game, one of our players looked at his car before the game and ours and was like "oh man, I made a terrible car!". He was wrong, he took second. :D

[Sam Mitschke]

@NexusGameTheory
Yay! I'm really happy to hear that playing out beyond just our internal testing. We built and played some *weird* cars to push against that boundary, and it held up for us. Time will tell if we plugged all the holes. That said, it is totally possible to build a "bad" car for any one particular game. I once built a car with no fire extinguishing and everyone else loaded up on fire weapons. I was...ahem...hosed before we started.

This also seems like a good place to note that many items are slightly more or less valuable than others, either based on gameplay circumstances OR because we had to round the cost of some items up or down to fit within the simple AP/BP/CP cost structure. As players really dig in and try to quantify every nut and bolt, those slight discrepancies may appear...but I think we rounded in the correct direction to make things feel fair for what you pay.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by beetle496

Sorry, I think I missed the lesson here. Was this an example where a novice accidentally built a useless car? Because useless weapons were on the menu, and your point is that having VSG available was counter-productive?

Not a "novice" -- this guy had been with NOVA from Day One back in the '80s. His problem was: His designs were all 5 years out-of-date. (Once, he brought a standard-chassis Pickup to a Div. 15 event; he was just talented enough to make his designs viable, but he did eventually run into me.... >:) )

In this case: He didn't realize that Metal Armor was *far* more useful in low Divisions, due to the lack of Metal-removing weapons at that level (the MML, or the Explosive-ammo MG, were the only real options; the former didn't carry enough rounds, and the latter cost too much). He could only do 2 pts. per VSG, and had *zero* Metal-removing capacity; my _INS_-series ("Ironside", you see... :) ) carried 5-6 pts. Metal on the main four facings. Quite literally, he *could not harm my vehicle at all*; whereas my HAVR-armed passenger could, and did.

Moral: Keep up with the tech, or you become a grease spot on the arena floor. :)

Originally Posted by beetle496

Speaking of which, where is the plain old regular shotgun? I have linked shotguns and a turreted shotgun.

The "regular shotgun" is a hand weapon -- has been since Day One.

Originally Posted by beetle496

I understand you to be saying that the one too silly for your tastes. Do you agree that both were broken damage sinks?

I wouldn't go *that* far -- as I said: They are examples of "one-off" items, with limited use outside a certain *very* narrow range. For ex.: The Armored [Beer] Refrigerator might be mounted in a vehicle for a convoy adventure where "this item needs to be taken from [A] to [B] in [X] time, and must be kept frozen"; if the A[B]R is destroyed, MISSION FAILED. Ambunought, anyone?

This is why I suggested the counter-example of "give the Mini-Safe a refrigerator option", the same as 10-wheelers and semi-trailers -- why reinvent the wheel, so to speak?

[Sam Mitschke]

@43Supporter
We also typically try to make our rules keep players on specific rails, but with this one, we knew players were coming in with extremely high customization expectations for nearly every aspect of the game. Things ended up becoming far easier for us to work toward making every answer be YES than to devise rules and rationales for an answer to be NO. In approaching things this way, we revealed a lot of our own "it has to be this way" preconceptions/prejudices about Car Wars — and games in general — that were holding us back. It's more fun and freeing from a design perspective to go from point A directly to point C when you assume that a non-B path already exists and you just need to find it.

[beetle496]

Thanks for the additional exposition @43Supporter, that makes sense to me. I agree that one had to keep up with full UA catalog and current rules to be competitive.

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

The "regular shotgun" is a hand weapon -- has been since Day One.

I need to recheck the 6e card stats. I am probably operating from my prejudice that OG VS was significantly different from the man-portable version.

I wouldn't go *that* far…

As you note, I agree, since I recall the mini-safe being introduced as a MacGuffin for courier missions, and it serves it purpose well there. But then saw it used routinely in competition builds for a couple of years. The damage sink abuse fell out of favor, just about as quickly, but I forget why. That might have been about the time Metal Armor was introduced? I forget how/when the mini-safe became the ABR. Maybe just because it was funny?

[kjamma4]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

Things ended up becoming far easier for us to work toward making every answer be YES than to devise rules and rationales for an answer to be NO.

FWIW, I think you did a great job of porting the Car Wars Flavor (not sure if that should be a registered trademark!) to the new version.

One of my particular "Wow" moments was seeing the two Concealment Systems. At first, I was not sure that these might be cost effective.

I have not used them yet but I do see that there are deeper nuances there. The vehicle with it of course loses build points to do so. Additionally, there may be a cost of lost opportunity every time it could have been used but was not.

However, from the other players' points of view, there has to be the thought in the back of their mind "If I do this, what if she uses the concealment for this?" This could/should have an effect on their play style in regards to that vehicle which would be a benefit that cannot be expressed solely in build points.

The nice thing about it is that one card takes the place of multiple systems in the previous rules. You get all the benefit without all the clutter.

On a similar note, the flame jets ARE bumper triggers - just one specific type. It avoids having to link up one card to another card which I think would just get messy.

Well done.