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Old 07-19-2021, 11:03 AM   #11
Prince Charon
 
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Mentioned in the OP, but yes. Expanding on that a bit, it occurs to me that creating a bunch of Psi Techniques to use as spells could work in a Low-Tech Psionics worldline like in the Yrth as a Psionic setting thread. It would just be a matter of picking a few appropriate core psi abilities, and adding a range of new Psi Techniques (probably mostly player-created, though maybe some of you might post a few to this thread).
Thought about expanding on this some more, and had a look through GURPS Psionic Powers for abilities under each power (only the main ones, not the ones under Additional Powers) where it seems plausible (mechanically or fluffwise) that you could have a wide variety of useful Psi Techniques per ability (though I haven't tried creating new psi techniques for these, so I might be wrong). Some are easier than others:

* Anti-Psi
Not really well-suited to a 'spellcaster' of this sort. Screaming seems to me to be the best fit, but I'm dubious on that.


* Astral Projection
Astral Sword seems like the best fit, though Astral Travel and Astral Sight with Astral Hearing might work with the same justification as Spirit Communication (see ESP, below).


* Ergokinesis
Under Cyberpsi, Netrunning seems like the best fit, though most or all of your spells will only function in Cyberspace. Also, the lower the tech level, the less likely Cyberpsi is to exist at all. Electrokinesis has several good ones: Confuse has potential depending on how you work the fluff, and Dampen, Surge, and Lightning all seem workable with some effort. The best one for this under Photokinesis is Hologram, but both Flash and Photorefraction have some potential.


* ESP
All of them work for information-gathering techniques, but probably the most versatile option on the list is Spirit Communication, if you fluff it as 'I got a spirit to do me a favor.' That option is basically limited only by what the GM forbids, and some or all of the energy cost could be fluffed as 'paying off the spirits.' Seekersense, especially at level 4, is mechanically a good option for this, but fluffwise only fits information-gathering effects.


* Probability Alteration
Any of the detailed examples except Combat Sense and possibly Second Chance could work with a wide range of stunts, as long as you can fluff it as modifying probabilities.


* Psychic Healing
Fluffwise, the best fit is probably Cure and its derivatives, though Disease Shield and Sleep work mechanically, and could possibly be fluffed into fitting.


* Psychic Vampirism
Steal Power is really the best option for this, fluffed as 'recalling powers previously stolen' (or previously encountered if the GM is generous about it for some reason). Depending on the GM and setting, this may not be all that restrictive.


* Psychokinesis
Telekinetic Control is obviously the best option for this, but may not be available. Failing that, I suggest TK Crush, TK Grab, Cryokinisis, or Pyrokinesis.


* Telepathy
Sensory Control might be the best general option here, though Mental Blow and Mental Stab are mechanically fitting, and Telereceive, Telesend, and Telespeak could potentially work (indeed, Telespeak could plausibly have power stunts to imitate every other telepathic ability).


* Teleportation
Depending on how you fluff it, each of Autoteleport, Exoteleport, and Innerportation could possibly be stunted to a decent range of versatility.



Thoughts?
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Last edited by Prince Charon; 10-25-2021 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 07-19-2021, 01:50 PM   #12
naloth
 
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

I'm not familiar with the G:Psi Powers rules, but it sounds like quite a bit of what I did was similar when I was working on Spellforging.

- I prefer rolling once, rather than having an extra effort roll and a power activation roll. It's not hard to limit advantages to have an activation roll or turn them into attack type (ranged) abilities.

- For my own use, created a "god-like" version of Improvised Enhancements where you could divide the fatigue cost by the extra effort penalty. I haven't play tested it much but I suspect it's as fair as god-like EE for more power.

- For the setting I was preparing, I pre-built a number of abilities. Mostly this was for flavor, since a common complaint I hear is that "GURPS abilities are bland". I encourage players to build abilities that fit within the constraints of the campaign.
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Old 07-19-2021, 05:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

My own home-brewed magical system is a powers based system that uses the "stunts" - specifically adding enhancements to powers - as part of its core design. It took me a while to fully design and tweak to where I like it, but I've been using it for several years and my players love it. So figured I'd share its workings here in case it interests anyone.

First, I have my own magical meta-modifier which include Magical, Requires Incantations, and Requires Gestures. They also have Requires a Skill Roll or replaces the Attribute Roll with a Skill Roll.

I also have two unique meta-modifiers I use that are created by adding a limitation to another limitation or an enhancement:
Skill-Based Fatigue Cost: (Prerequisite: requires skill or attribute roll). Your spell costs FP to use equal to the level of this limitation, but for every 2 points by which you succeed your skill roll, you may reduce the cost by 1. The cost to maintain will be half the cost to cast. Apply the Limited by Margin limitation to Cost Fatigue limitation. Level 1 is Cost Fatigue 1 (Limited By Margin 2) -0% limitation. Level 2 is Cost Fatigue 2 (Limited By Margin 4) -0% limitation. Level 3 is Cost Fatigue 3 (Limited By Margin 6) -0% limitation. Level 4 is Cost Fatigue 4 (Limited By Margin 8) -5% limitation. Level 5 is Cost Fatigue 5 (Limited By Margin 10) -10% limitation. At levels 6+, the Limited By Margin limitation reaches its cap of a -50% limitation. This means that levels 6+ are worth half as much as the equivalent Cost Fatigue limitation, rounding up to the nearest 5%. Level 6 is therefore Cost Fatigue 6 (Limited By Margin 12) -15% limitation, level 7 is Cost Fatigue 7 (Limited By Margin 14) -15% limitation, level 8 is Cost Fatigue 8 (Limited By Margin 16) -20% limitation, and so on. For Skill-Based Fatigue Cost levels 1 to 3, it is a -0% limitation, level 4 is a -5% limitation, level 5 is a -10% limitation, and level 6 is a -15% limitation. Increase the value of the limitation by -5% for every additional 2 levels after 6. Therefore, level 7 is still a -15% limitation, levels 8 and 9 are a -20% limitation, levels 10 and 11 are a -25% limitation, levels 12 and 13 are a -30% limitation, and so on.

Skill-Based Reduced Fatigue Cost: (Prerequisite: requires skill or attribute roll) Each level of this enhancement reduces the FP cost to activate the ability, but only if you succeed your skill roll by 2 per FP; i.e., a success by 2 reduces it by 1, a success by 4 reduces it by 2, a success by 6 reduces it by 3, etc. Apply the the Limited By Margin limitation to the Reduced Fatigue Cost enhancement. Level 1 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 1 (Limited By Margin 2) +18% enhancement. Level 2 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 2 (Limited By Margin 4) +32% enhancement. Level 3 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 3 (Limited By Margin 6) +42% enhancement. Level 4 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 4 (Limited By Margin 8) +48% enhancement. Level 5 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 5 (Limited By Margin 10) +50% enhancement. At levels 6+, the Limited By Margin limitation reaches its cap of a -50% limitation. This means that levels 6+ are worth half as much as the equivalent Reduced Fatigue Cost enhancement, making it worth (10 x level)%. Level 6 is therefore Reduced Fatigue Cost 6 (Limited By Margin 12) +60% enhancement, level 7 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 7 (Limited By Margin 14) +70% enhancement, level 8 is Reduced Fatigue Cost 8 (Limited By Margin 16) +80% enhancement, and so on. The Skill-Based Reduced Fatigue Cost is therefore a a +18% enhancement at level 1, +32% enhancement at level 2, +42% enhancement at level 3, +48% enhancement at level 4, +50% enhancement at level 5, and +60% enhancement at level 6. Increase the value of the enhancement by +10% for every additional level after 6. Therefore, level 7 is a +70% enhancement, level 8 is a +80% enhancement, level 9 is a +90% enhancement, level 10 is a +100% enhancement, and so on.
I then built the "basic spells" using the base advantages in the rule books with only absolutely essential enhancements for a certain basic effect. No other enhancements are allowed. I have a whole framework as to how to calculate an appropriate FP cost for the spell (typically 1 FP per 10 character points of base value, but there are various exceptions) and modify them accordingly with the Skill-Based Fatigue Cost/Reduced Fatigue Cost. I also adjust the casting time (typical one level of Takes Extra Time for every 25 character points, but again various exceptions). They all require a skill roll, and you must purchase the skill separately.

The power stunts come in for the "advanced spells." (or what I call "metaspells").

First each metaspell (each specific enhancement) is a separate advantage. I's priced according to the cost of the technique to buy off the penalty of the stunt, so that's (1 + 1 per 10% enhancement character points), so 2 points for up to a +10% enhancement, 3 points for up to +20%, etc. The technique must normally be specialized by ability (i.e., by advantage), so I then use the Wildcard process and triple the cost so that it applies to all abilities. We're now at 6 points for up to a +10% enhancement, 9 points for up to +20% enhancement, etc. You then add the MAgical -10% limitation to that cost as well as the Requires Skill Roll (-10%) limitation. So each metaspell also requires its own skill, purchased separately.

Finally, increase that cost by 1 character point to add a Metaspell Perk which does two things: allows you to use the power stun of adding an enhancement to an ability (whether this actually requires a perk to do or not is up to the GM, but this perk does two things, so not really an issue); and adds the 2 FP to the cost of the base spell for the total cost, which can be reduced on a good roll. In this case, since both the spell and the metaspell have separate skills, you roll once against your lowest skill, and for every 2 points of success you reduce the FP cost by 1.

So, if a wizard has Fireball Spell 3 (for 3d) at skill 16 that costs 3 FP to cast, and the Rapid Fire (RoF 3) Metaspell as skill 14, he can cast an ordinary 3d fireball for 3 FP if he rolls a 15 or 16, for 2 FP if he rolls a 13 or 14, for 1 FP if he rolls an 11 or 12, or no FP if he rolls a 10 or less. Or, he can try a rapid fire (RoF 3) 3d fireballs for (3 + 2 =) 5 FP if he rolls a 13 or 14 (the lower of his two skills is 14), 4 FP on an 11 or 12, 3 FP on a 9 or 10, 2 FP on a 7 or 8, 1 FP on a 5 or 6, or no FP on a 4 or less (at which point the critical success no FP would have kicked in anyway).

He could add multiple metaspells. I debated whether I should add +2 FP per stunt, but decided to stick to the +2 FP total no matter how many he adds. The limitation to adding multiple metaspells is not the fatigue per se, but the fact that you must roll against the lowest skill of all of your metaspell skills, making it more difficult to get a good roll and good reduction in energy cost.

Anyway, figured I'd share since I have by using power stunts as spells (or metaspells) in my campaign for years, although admittedly with a bit of a more rigid framework, and it works well.

Last edited by Kallatari; 07-19-2021 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 07-19-2021, 08:46 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

That seems a bit complicated. I just added the cost of the temporary enhancements to the godlike EE formula:

-1 per (+10% x FP) where the +10% represents the total of enhancements added plus the extra effort for power levels.

It's the same as this formula, which I find more handy since you're usually trying to figure out how much fatigue you need to spend:
(Total%) / (skill penalty * 10%) = Total fatigue cost.

I haven't tested it much for balance, but it seems to work well since the group was already familiar with using godlike EE for ST and other abilities.
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Old 09-11-2021, 08:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

Thinking about Control Mana as a core power for this sort of system. Do we have clear rules (either official or houserules) for how it interacts with local mana levels, mana types, and/or with Aspected mana? Also, do we have rules or houserules for how Create Mana does, and for how it differs from Mana Enhancer?
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Thinking about Control Mana as a core power for this sort of system. Do we have clear rules (either official or houserules) for how it interacts with local mana levels, mana types, and/or with Aspected mana? Also, do we have rules or houserules for how Create Mana does, and for how it differs from Mana Enhancer?
My Supernatural Energy article from a previous Pyramid Kickstarter had Control (Mana) but did not delve into aspected mana as I lacked room and thought the effects too obvious to write up. Hopefully you have that issue as it does not appear to be for sale on W23.

Basically if you have Aspected on your Control (Mana) it will only work for the right aspect or help with appropriate spells. It should still be able to draw on and manipulate normal mana to some degree though, if not I would probably increase the limitation another say -20%.
With that you wouldn't even be able to cast spells outside an aspected area.
Mana levels I would go with the smaller steps suggested in Thaumatology.
However Create (Mana) is an interesting idea and might be worth a short submission....
I have some ideas already but let me pitch it first.
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Old 09-13-2021, 05:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

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My Supernatural Energy article from a previous Pyramid Kickstarter had Control (Mana) but did not delve into aspected mana as I lacked room and thought the effects too obvious to write up. Hopefully you have that issue as it does not appear to be for sale on W23.
I don't think I have it, and being unemployed, it being on W23 would not necessarily mean that I would get it despite being interested.

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Basically if you have Aspected on your Control (Mana) it will only work for the right aspect or help with appropriate spells. It should still be able to draw on and manipulate normal mana to some degree though, if not I would probably increase the limitation another say -20%.
With that you wouldn't even be able to cast spells outside an aspected area.
Mana levels I would go with the smaller steps suggested in Thaumatology.
However Create (Mana) is an interesting idea and might be worth a short submission....
I was more thinking about how regular Control Mana would interact with Aspected Mana, and how Control Aspected Mana would interact with mana that was of the wrong aspect, but depending on the metaphysics of it, perhaps not a contradictory Aspect.

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I have some ideas already but let me pitch it first.
Fair.
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Old 12-06-2021, 12:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

I'll be posting this sheet to the Yrth Psionics setting thread eventually, but I wanted to put it here first, so that people can have a look and point out errors or suggest additions or changes (I could have just posted the core power and the stunts, but I thought posting the whole character would give context to it).

Jean-Pierre le Bleu, 1993

Age: 32

Attributes

ST 11 [10]; DX 10 [0]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 10 [0]

Secondary Characteristics

HP 11; Will 12 [10]; Per 10; FP 20 [30]

Social Background

Languages: Aralaise (Native) [0]; Anglish (Accented) [4]; Arabic (Accented) [4]; Old Aralaise (Broken) [2]; Latin (Broken) [2].

TL: 4^ [5]

Cultural Familiarity: Christian region. [0]

Subtotal: 67


Advantages

Fit [5]
Ship Rank 2 [8]
Born Sailor 2 [10]

Affliction (Disadvantages: Weirdness Magnet, +15%; Area Effect 8 yards, +150%; Based on Will, +20%; Increased Range x2, +10%; Malediction, +100%, Selective Area, +20%; Astral Projection, -10%; Requires Will Roll, -5%) [40]
Astral Projection Talent 3 [15]
Protected Power (Astral Projection) [5]
Second Sight (see Notes) [24]

Perks

Astral Awareness. [1]
Gestalt Familiarity. [1]
No Hangovers. [1]
Rules Exemption (FP can exceed HT by 100%). [1]
SOP (Watch the Woods). [1]

Subtotal: 112


Disadvantages

Chummy [-5]
Code of Honor (Pirate's) [-5]
Duty (Sailor; 12 or less) [-10]
Odious Personal Habit (Curses like a sailor) [-5]
Reputation (Weirdness Magnet; Aralaise sailors (large group), 10 or less) -2 [-3]
Sense of Duty (Crewmates) [-5]
Wealth (Struggling) [-10]

Quirks

Always wears something blue. [-1]
Dislikes being too far inland. [-1]
Fond of wine, perhaps too much. [-1]
Mild lecherousness. [-1]
Night person. [-1]

Subtotal: -48


Features

Occultism is a complementary skill of all Psi skills. [0]


Skills

Affliction [Will/H] [8] 16*
Area Knowledge (Araterre ports) [IQ/E] [1] 10
Area Knowledge (Ring Islands) [IQ/E] [2] 11
Boating/TL4^ [DX/A] [1] 11**
Brawling [DX/E] [2] 11
Climbing [DX/A] [2] 10
Fortune-Telling (Oracle) [IQ/A] [2] 13*
Gambling [IQ/A] [4] 11
Knot-Tying [DX/E] [1] 12**
Leadership [IQ/A] [2] 10
Main-Gauche [DX/A] [4] 11
Navigation (Sea)/TL4^ [IQ/A] [2] 12**
Occultism [IQ/A] [4] 11
Retrocognition [IQ/H] [2] 12*
Running [HT/A] [2] 10
Sabre [DX/A] [4] 11
Seamanship/TL4^ [IQ/E] [2] 13**
Shiphandling/TL4^ [IQ/H] [4] 12**
Survival (Island/Beach) [Per/A] [4] 11
Teaching [IQ/A] [2] 10
True Sight [Will/H] [4] 15*
Weather Sense/TL4^ [IQ/A] [2] 12**

*Includes +3 from Astral Projection Talent.
**Includes +2 from Born Sailor Talent.

Subtotal: 61

Techniques

Commune with the Sky Spirits (H) Affliction-6 [4] 13
Life Support (H) Affliction-6 [4] 13
Astral Bow (H) Affliction-1 [0] 15
Stunning Misfortune (H) Affliction-1 [0] 15

Aspected Coincidence (H) Affliction-3 [0] 13
Spirit Summoning (H) Affliction-3 [0] 13
Talent (H) Affliction-2 [0] 14

Subtotal: 8

Total: 200


Equipment

Cutlass
Dagger
Fancy hat with a bright blue feather
Good clothes
Sturdy boots
Moneybag

Notes

Jean-Pierre was built partly using the Sailor template from GURPS Historical Folks p97 (and the 4e conversion hosted at RPK's MyGURPS.com, p41). A more traditional sort of swashbuckler might have some version of Daredevil (Probability Alteration) or Rapier Wit (either Telepathy, Biokinesis, or Probability Alteration) as the core ability. His Ship Rank is 4 per level because they aren't part of a real organization beyond the crew of one ship. Due to crew size, the petty officers are Rank 1 or Courtesy Rank 1, the senior officers are Rank 2 (Jean-Pierre is third mate, and tends to command during the late watches), and the ship's Master (Captain in modern terms) is Rank 3. Due to his Reputation, the ship that he was able to get a regular berth on, Le Belle d'Ansonne, is one that makes frequent visits to the Ring Islands, and thus has some difficulty getting 'normal' crew.

SOP (Watch the Woods): Many trips to the Ring Islands have gotten Jean-Pierre into the habit of always paying attention to what nature is doing around him when he's in it (making Survival and True Sight roles to spot hazards), even when the nature around him isn't on the Ring Islands. If there's any question of whether he's been paying attention to nearby wilderness (or anything that the GM agrees looks enough like it), he has. The need to pay attention is also why his skill in Area Knowledge (Ring Islands) is higher than his knowledge of the ports of Araterre.

Twenty years ago, the young Jean-Pierre de Aballo (the small village where he grew up) had the Uncontrollable and Unconscious Only limitations on his Affliction, and no techniques or Second Sight, yet. His parents found a cunning man (psychic) to train him. The man quickly realized that the boy's power was not luck magic (Probability Alteration) like his own, but spirit magic (Astral Projection), and passed him on to a sea captain who could see spirits. Thus Jean-Pierre's career as a sailor and a magician began.

One would expect the ability to afflict someone with Weirdness Magnet would be a Probability Alteration effect, but in Jean-Pierre's case, he has the instinctive ability to project thoughtforms (see Tulpa, GURPS Horror for 4e p81), usually short-lived ones, which cause strange things to happen around their targets. Afflicting abilities on a group is sometimes useful to him, especially if a friendly telepath sets up a gestalt. Removing the Weirdness Magnet effect from his spells adds a further -1 to skill; worse, he doesn't always remember to do that.

His Second Sight is True Sight 2 with Oracle and Retrocognitive Flashbacks 1 as Alternate Abilities (all based on Astral Projection rather than ESP) - fluffwise, he can see spirits, and they both help him see through illusions, and occasionally try to communicate things to him about the past or future, but in different ways. It started out as a more limited power stunt, one of his first, but was used so often that it became an advantage.


Grimoire:

Astral Bow [Advantage: Astral Sword (remove Melee Attack limitation, +20%) 3, +210%; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%] [21]; [Loses Area Effect and Selecive Area, -170%] [-17] - [+10%], -1 penalty

Commune with the Sky Spirits [Advantage: Weather Control 1, +220%; Probability Alteration changed to Astral Projection; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%] [22]; [Area Effect of Affliction advantage reduced to 4 yards, -50%] [-5]; [Extended Duration, 1 hour, +70%] [7] - [+60%], -6 penalty

Life Support [Advantage: Hard to Kill (Astral Projection, -10%; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%) 10] [17]; [Extended Duration, 1 hour, +70%] [7] - [+60%], -6 penalty

Stunning Misfortune [Stun, +10%; Disadvantages: Easy to Kill 7, +14%, and Unluckiness, +15%; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%] [4] - [+10%], -1 penalty

(These three have no points spent on their techniques because a bought technique would need to be for a specific advantage, rather than a collection of possible advantages - one Aspect of the Coincidence ability, one Talent, or one spirit or type of spirit with a specific Frequency of Appearance.):
Aspected Coincidence [Advantage: Coincidence (Aspected, -20%; Probability Alteration changed to Astral Projection; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%) 1] [20]; [Area Effect reduced to 2 yards, -100%] [-10] - [+25%], -3 penalty

Spirit Summoning [Advantage: Ally w/ Summonable, +100%; Astral Projection, -10%; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%] [9] - [+25%], -3 penalty
(Any spirit Ally or Ally Group worth up to ten points.)

Talent [Advantage: Up to 30 points in one non-Psi Talent (Astral Projection, -10%; Nuisance Effect (Must speak or gesture), -5%)] [26]; [Loses Area Effect and Selecive Area, -170%] [-17] - [+22%], -2 penalty
(Does not effect any GM-set limits on Talent levels.)
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Old 01-19-2022, 06:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

Having a thought that fits this thread: The Stunts Only limitation on Energy Reserve is -10%. I wonder, though, if that limitation should have the same cost when applied to something else, like Magery (possibly some branch of Limited Magery). So, it negates some penalties for spellcasting in this system, but does not enhance the magical skills for other purposes.

Speaking of Magery limitations, I find myself wondering how much of a limitation 'Subtle Magic Only' or 'Obvious Magic Only' would be.
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Old 01-20-2022, 10:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Magic-as-Powers] Power Stunts as Spells

My Different Take on Imbuements is something like this, but essentially treats the character's skill as the base ability. It also generally puts the activation and use rolls into a single one - if you want to make an attack that adds on a (5) armor divisor, pay 1 FP and take a -15 to your attack roll.
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