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Old 09-16-2020, 07:08 PM   #1
bearit
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Default Issues with Retreating Dodge

I had a rather frustrating experience with GURPS recently.

Using Basic Set rules. A combat situation occurred where a melee combatant (Broadsword wielder) charged a ranged combatant (Bow wielder). The combat went as follows:

-Broadsword used a Move and Attack to close the distance to 1 hex and attack.
-Bow used a Retreating Dodge, stepping back and increasing distance to 2 hexes.
-Bow used the Attack Manuever, taking another Step back, increasing distance to 3 hexes, and shooting Broadsword.
-Now 3 hexes away, Broadsword must again make another Move and Attack or All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack.

The pattern continued with the defensive ranged combatant outpacing the melee combatant until Broadsword died full of arrows.

It seems inherently faulty that Retreating Dodge gives not only active defense bonuses, but essentially double movement (2 steps) with NO penalties. A melee combatant ALWAYS had to eat a substantial penalty - skill cap of 9 (Move and Attack) or no active defenses (All-Out Attack) - just to keep up with a backpedaling foe.

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:23 PM   #2
Plane
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit View Post
It seems inherently faulty that Retreating Dodge gives not only active defense bonuses, but essentially double movement (2 steps) with NO penalties. A melee combatant ALWAYS had to eat a substantial penalty - skill cap of 9 (Move and Attack) or no active defenses (All-Out Attack) - just to keep up with a backpedaling foe.

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
You're interpreting the rules correctly. The problem was known back in 3e and one of the suggested fixes in compendium was that if you use a retreat, you subtract one step (or one movement point) from your next turn's maneuver.

This wasn't carried over into 4e, and it was sort of an incomplete solve because it still gave a temporary movement advantage to targets, who were still borrowing steps from the future.

- -

One benefit in your case (since the archer is actually shooting at you) is in GURPS Martial Arts: when he shoots at you, you can specify your retreat is a "slip" where you move toward him. This is one legal way to help close the gap. It gives a lesser bonus (+1 instead of +3) of course.

Unfortunately that doesn't help with chasing someone you're attacking if they're not actually attacking you, since you can't trigger a retreat.

- -

Another option also from Martial Arts is the new "Committed Attack" maneuver.

This allows you to take a 2nd step if you take a -2 to attack penalty, which you can nullify by the +2 to skill you get (or opt to take +1 dmg instead) which is a better option than eating -4 to hit on Move and Attack.

Downside: some defence penalties, but not a complete lack of it like AOA.

Since this is a melee maneuver, it's not going to help the archer (he can't fire an arrow using it) get further distance so he would have to use Move and Attack himself to keep spacing with you.

- -

Another simple solve to me (if you're neither attacked or want to take Committed Attack) is: if someone really wants to get that extra retreat step, let them do it at any time either during their turn or their opponent's turn. Just leave pauses while describing others' actions so you can jump in. If there's dispute about who gets to move first, could resolve it with Basic Speed or some contest.

If timing is an issue, just roll it as a dodge (against nothing) moreso to see if you move quickly enough to react to something. That actually seems to be in essence what sacrificial dodge is: using your retreat at ANY time, even when not attacked, reacting to something else.

No reason I can see to limit that to just "my friend is being attacked".

Could also be "enemy is approaching doorway, I want to step into the doorway to block it".

If you don't need to 'Wait' to impose yourself as cover (just SacDod) then no reason I can see we ought to rely only on Waits to do other kinds of impositions.

Including in your case "the archer retreated and I bet he's going to take a SECOND step back, so I want to keep equidistant to him"

Last edited by Plane; 09-16-2020 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:26 PM   #3
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I had a rather frustrating experience with GURPS recently.

Using Basic Set rules. A combat situation occurred where a melee combatant (Broadsword wielder) charged a ranged combatant (Bow wielder). The combat went as follows:

-Broadsword used a Move and Attack to close the distance to 1 hex and attack.
-Bow used a Retreating Dodge, stepping back and increasing distance to 2 hexes.
-Bow used the Attack Manuever, taking another Step back, increasing distance to 3 hexes, and shooting Broadsword.
-Now 3 hexes away, Broadsword must again make another Move and Attack or All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack.

The pattern continued with the defensive ranged combatant outpacing the melee combatant until Broadsword died full of arrows.

It seems inherently faulty that Retreating Dodge gives not only active defense bonuses, but essentially double movement (2 steps) with NO penalties. A melee combatant ALWAYS had to eat a substantial penalty - skill cap of 9 (Move and Attack) or no active defenses (All-Out Attack) - just to keep up with a backpedaling foe.

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
You're not misinterpreting the rules. However, the archer is moving quite rapidly backwards. Unless they have eyes in the back of their head, or it's dead even ground, I'd consider ruling that the ground counts as bad footing, for a -2 to attacks, and DX checks to stay standing.

Also, it sounds like the archer had plenty of room to retreat to. The trick when fighting ranged people as melee is to crowd them into places where they have no room to retreat. Oh, and the archer is only attacking every 3rd turn unless they've a Fast-Draw high enough to reliably quick-load their bow, and even then it's only every second turn. Thus the swordsman is getting twice as many attacks, though they aren't accurate.

Another thing - if the swordsman is using Move and Attack from 2 yards away, they can probably move far enough to attack into the archer's side or rear, giving the archer -2 to their defence and allowing the swordsman to 'herd' the archer.

Given the cap (9- to hit) on a Move and Attack the swordsman should be trying to hit an interesting location, like an arm (cripple the arm, the archer isn't an archer any more).

The swordsman can also try a Slam, though that's probably best if they have a shield and a good Shield skill (so they can use Deceptive Attack).
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Move & Attack into Close Combat instead. Penalty to hit doesn't matter, if you miss, he can't retreat and can only step away into 1 yard range, putting him into the range of your sword, perfect for stabbing. Consider grappling him too.

If you hit and he has to retreat, he retreats out of close combat into 1-yard range, then steps to 2-yard range on his turn. On your turn, step into 1-yard range and stab him.

You can also time it so that when he reloads, you AoA (Determined), which allows 1/2 move forward and gives +4 to hit. Spend it on Deceptive attack fully so his retreat is penalized. Use it on grapple. Or use it to break his leg.

Once he's out of range, move & attack into close combat again.

At some point you'll hit with either grapple or broadsword, that's when the fun is over.

Another way is to use Heroic Charge extra effort (spend 1 FP to remove Move and attack penalty). Heroic Charge into his back with a deceptive.

Remember that at close enough range, you can parry ranged weapons like melee. If he fires his bow at you, parry it with a slip forward!

P.S.: Realize that ranged weapons are superior and keep a throwing spear on deck. Somewhere on the forums Kromm has allowed Two-handed Sword fast-draw for Spears and Staffs, so get in close, fast-draw it, toss into leg, use broadsword to stab.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I had a rather frustrating experience with GURPS recently.

Using Basic Set rules. A combat situation occurred where a melee combatant (Broadsword wielder) charged a ranged combatant (Bow wielder). The combat went as follows:

-Broadsword used a Move and Attack to close the distance to 1 hex and attack.
-Bow used a Retreating Dodge, stepping back and increasing distance to 2 hexes.
-Bow used the Attack Manuever, taking another Step back, increasing distance to 3 hexes, and shooting Broadsword.
-Now 3 hexes away, Broadsword must again make another Move and Attack or All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack.

The pattern continued with the defensive ranged combatant outpacing the melee combatant until Broadsword died full of arrows.

It seems inherently faulty that Retreating Dodge gives not only active defense bonuses, but essentially double movement (2 steps) with NO penalties. A melee combatant ALWAYS had to eat a substantial penalty - skill cap of 9 (Move and Attack) or no active defenses (All-Out Attack) - just to keep up with a backpedaling foe.

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
You are not wrong in your reading. I assume the bow user succeeded on all dodge rolls, failing any of them means they don't move.

The problem the sword user has is not understanding the full extent of combat against someone with greater reach/ranged weapon.

I once was in a arena game using an unarmed martial artist, one match was against a weapon user. I beat them by forcing them to retreat non stop until they could not move anymore.

How to do that is to use a wait maneuver. Specifically Stop Hit from Martial Arts. So first you move in using All out Defense until you are in close combat. Then change to either defensive attacks or stop hits. Stop hits is a special wait where you attack at the same time as the opponent, who ever has the lower margin of success suffers a penalty to their defense. They will try to retreat, succeed or fail does not matter, because this is still happening on THEIR turn. Once this is done it is now YOUR turn, move up and attack, they can not retreat anymore because you can only retreat once until your next turn.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:50 PM   #6
MrFix
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Forgot to mention

Both Move & Attack and All-Out Attack permit you to strike at ANY point during your movement, during AND after (AOA also allows you to strike before movement).

What that means is that you can take M&A, approach your target within 1 yard reach, strike at them without close-combat penalties, and THEN move into close combat with them as long as you have enough MP left.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:10 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
I assume the bow user succeeded on all dodge rolls, failing any of them means they don't move.
Wrong, that's only if you grapple them
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearit View Post
I had a rather frustrating experience with GURPS recently. (...) The pattern continued with the defensive ranged combatant outpacing the melee combatant until Broadsword died full of arrows. (...)

Has anyone else encountered this situation? I'm I interpreting the rules wrong?

This situation seems entirely ridiculous as it was playing out.
Don't worry, sometimes it's just a matter of knowing the basic mechanics, applying some logic and taking the risk.

The swordsman did not have kill the archer right away.

If the swordsman was close enough to strike with a move-and-attack, they could have walked towards the archer at full speed and wait.

You forfeit the attack, but now you can parry the bow (or the arms of the archer) once they try to attack; this means you can cripple their wooden bow (or their arms) with your sword (it's almost the same thing against firearms).

At this range the archer also gets bulk penalties, which means they have it harder to shoot.

I also play with GURPS martial arts rules, the suggestions here are really good. I would recommend you to master the basic set before more adding layers of awesome, if you find this kind of issues in your games.
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Old 09-16-2020, 11:04 PM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

A few brief thoughts.

All Out Attack might actually be a pretty good option - on turns when the archer's bow isn't ready. Unless they're an extremely-heroic archer who can pull off an accurate instant snapshot (requiring non-Basic rules) they have no effective way to punish that move...even if you assume it won't connect, which it very well might.

Martial Arts also offers the Committed Attack, which can allow the melee fighter to advance two steps without entirely sacrificing their defenses.

Also, reach weapons. There are a number of one-handed swords that offer reach 1, 2 (mainly outside Basic, but the katana and rapier are decent options), which can give you some extremely helpful flexibility with this sort of situation.

Slamming the archer in hopes of knocking them down might be a viable option, particularly if using a shield.
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Old 09-16-2020, 11:38 PM   #10
Plane
 
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Default Re: Issues with Retreating Dodge

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Originally Posted by Hide View Post
If the swordsman was close enough to strike with a move-and-attack, they could have walked towards the archer at full speed and wait.

You forfeit the attack, but now you can parry the bow (or the arms of the archer) once they try to attack; this means you can cripple their wooden bow (or their arms) with your sword (it's almost the same thing against firearms).

At this range the archer also gets bulk penalties, which means they have it harder to shoot.
All they have to do to avoid bulk penalties is exit close combat, meaning they use the 'step' first to go backward and then fire.

The range at which you can parry bows/guns is usually C-only when you are barehanded (though HT says reach 1 is fine if they're using a rifle) but I'm not sure if that would increase from C/1 to 1/2 if you had a reach 1 weapon to parry with.

Like for example could a reach 4 spear parry guns from 4 hexes away?
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