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Old 09-10-2020, 03:08 PM   #21
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Skarg, the link you posted actually refers to the types of shields as "Buckler" (top row), "Kite" (2nd row), and "Tower" (bottom row). Although I don't believe the various images are necessarily to scale.

I've been lucky enough to view and handle bucklers in museums and private collections around the world; they vary in size and composition somewhat but I don't believe that your assertion,"A buckler is like just the central boss on the round shields shown on the top row there" is correct. The buckler actually is "the round shield shown on the top row there."

I think that TFT is more than abstract enough to call "buckler" another type of small shield.

Otherwise we'd have to go - Buckler stops 1 hit, small shield (in your model) stops 2 hits, large shield stops 3 hits, and tower shield stops 4 hits.
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Old 09-10-2020, 03:46 PM   #22
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lord View Post
Skarg, the link you posted actually refers to the types of shields as "Buckler" (top row), "Kite" (2nd row), and "Tower" (bottom row). Although I don't believe the various images are necessarily to scale.

I've been lucky enough to view and handle bucklers in museums and private collections around the world; they vary in size and composition somewhat but I don't believe that your assertion,"A buckler is like just the central boss on the round shields shown on the top row there" is correct. The buckler actually is "the round shield shown on the top row there."

I think that TFT is more than abstract enough to call "buckler" another type of small shield.

Otherwise we'd have to go - Buckler stops 1 hit, small shield (in your model) stops 2 hits, large shield stops 3 hits, and tower shield stops 4 hits.
If you look at the buckler in the video Henry linked, it is a small piece of metal like a sandwich plate in size, which they call a buckler. As I wrote, it's about like the boss in the diagrams, if those shields are drawn to scale.

Yes, the web site with the picture I linked does say buckler for the smallest round shields it shows, but those are all actual medieval style/size shields, like what I would say a TFT Small Shield is about, and they're notably larger than what's meant by a buckler in the context of 16th Century fencing as in that video.

Another point of reference would be GURPS, which DOES go Buckler 1, Small Shield 2, Medium Shield 3, Large Shield 4 (or in GURPS 4e, 0, 1, 2, 3 - same difference). Of course GURPS also redesigns how defenses work, and if you increase the stats for shields in TFT then you start to mess with the original balance vs armor etc.

The term buckler of course breaks down if people can't agree on what it means. I guess I undermined my use of the term by not checking what they called the round shields on that image page.

I was trying to make a point about size. The video Henry posted is comparing the very small "buckler" versus the main gauche, and concluding the main gauche is only maybe-better in fencing duels against thrusts, while the buckler is better against other weapons or for real melee. And since that "buckler" in the video is so small, it seems to me it would offer less protection than a fuller actual medieval shield, much less a large medieval shield, and much less in turn than a tower shield. Therefore, irrespective of what you call a buckler, and even notwithstanding whether you want to add a "Buckler" to TFT and mean it is small and whether or not you want to let IT stop 1 hit per attack, the point I was trying to make, is that that video would say that what they are saying is that the main gauche is NOT better, nor even as good as, a buckler in general melee. So it would NOT support letting a Main Gauche stop more than a small shield.
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Old 09-10-2020, 04:09 PM   #23
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Thanks for clarifying. The point that I was trying to make was that I've seen "bucklers" that are slightly larger (and I don't think the images in the link were to scale at all. . .), certainly enough to classify them in the first tier of the 1/2/3 hit protection scheme of shields in TFT. From my perspective, buckler is to sm. shield as saber is to cutlass, i.e. close enough for the abstraction supported by the system.

If we were being absolutely scrupulous regarding shield types in TFT (which I really don't think we want to do), we'd probably have to go - buckler, sm. shield, med. shield, lg. shield, and tower shield (1/2/3/4/5!).

What Scott is holding in the video is indeed on the petite side. But to your point:

"So it would NOT support letting a Main Gauche stop more than a small shield."

I agree.
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Old 09-10-2020, 06:13 PM   #24
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

I don't think the cartoon of shields someone posted a link to is a particularly useful guide here. The round and heater shields that were shown are similar to each other in area and weight - much as you'll notice the Rottellas and a heaters in museum collections are broadly similar in size. If you were going to assign any shield to the category of 'large', these would be it. They are similar to each other, both are clearly a step below the largest shields (kites, roman infantry shields, medieval footmen's tower shields, etc.) and clearly a step above the smaller shields (bucklers, the small heater-shaped shields used in late 15th century once plate was well developed). Basically, if you don't think bucklers were small shields, than I don't know what you think was a small shield, or where bucklers fit in the game.

Also, the buckler in Henry's video is clearly one kind of buckler (I used to spar with an SCA heavy weapons guy who used one slightly smaller!). But it is clearly an extreme; most bucklers are 1' or more in diameter, and 1.5 to even 2' is not extraordinary. Check out this image from the I.33 fencing manual (ca. 1300), which shows two guys sparring, one with a tiny fist-sized buckler and one with a giant buckler the size and shape of a huge salad bowl:

https://grauenwolf.wordpress.com/201...-from-ms-i-33/

Last edited by larsdangly; 09-10-2020 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:36 PM   #25
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

I don't really know who you're replying to here, but I'll jump in.

The link Skarg provided has some problems, but the first row of the "cartoon" shields does provide a good, overall, depiction of a buckler. And allow me to quote myself when I said previously, "Although I don't believe the various images are necessarily to scale."

Also, I mentioned before (replying to Skarg) that, "I've been lucky enough to view and handle bucklers in museums and private collections around the world; they vary in size and composition somewhat but I don't believe that your assertion,"A buckler is like just the central boss on the round shields shown on the top row there" is correct."

So we seem to agree.

Your link is problematic though. When you point out, "two guys sparring, one with a tiny fist-sized buckler and one with a giant buckler the size and shape of a huge salad bowl" you fail to mention that this is generally considered artistic license.

From the link itself: "Here the artist is trying to convey that an outstretched bucker seems to be larger because it offers more protection. And if the scholar were to measure the priest’s bucker (sic) in degrees relative to his viewpoint, the closer bucker (sic) would in fact be larger."

So, yeah - I agree, for many and varied reasons, that the buckler should be considered a small shield.

But the images from 1.33 (recent, best scholarship, places this manual c. 1350) don't necessarily either support, or disprove, this belief.

The actual bucklers I've handled and sparred with in replica form, on the other hand. . .

Last edited by Jeff Lord; 09-10-2020 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:11 AM   #26
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I don't think the cartoon of shields someone posted a link to is a particularly useful guide here. The round and heater shields that were shown are similar to each other in area and weight - much as you'll notice the Rottellas and a heaters in museum collections are broadly similar in size. If you were going to assign any shield to the category of 'large', these would be it. They are similar to each other, both are clearly a step below the largest shields (kites, roman infantry shields, medieval footmen's tower shields, etc.) and clearly a step above the smaller shields (bucklers, the small heater-shaped shields used in late 15th century once plate was well developed). Basically, if you don't think bucklers were small shields, than I don't know what you think was a small shield, or where bucklers fit in the game.

Also, the buckler in Henry's video is clearly one kind of buckler (I used to spar with an SCA heavy weapons guy who used one slightly smaller!). But it is clearly an extreme; most bucklers are 1' or more in diameter, and 1.5 to even 2' is not extraordinary. Check out this image from the I.33 fencing manual (ca. 1300), which shows two guys sparring, one with a tiny fist-sized buckler and one with a giant buckler the size and shape of a huge salad bowl:

https://grauenwolf.wordpress.com/201...-from-ms-i-33/
Again, terminology. The conversation breaks down when I write "buckler" and apparently am either wrong or not saying what you or Jeff think of as a buckler.

What I mean by "buckler" is either what's shown in the video (is that even 12" across?), or something up to maybe a foot across, or what GURPS 1e-3e meant by buckler - an unstrapped very small shield held in the hand, notably smaller than Small Shield and unable to shield rush.

Examples:
12", 3.2 lbs https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...uckler-medium/
10", 4.4 lbs https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...buckler-small/
9" https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...uckler-9-inch/

What I think of as a Small Shield is something larger, not a fencing-era thing, more like around two feet or so, and probably at least partly strapped on.

Examples:
24", 6 lbs 13oz https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...-round-shield/
24" x 18", 10 lbs https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...battle-shield/
26" x 18" https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...battle-shield/
24", 6 lbs 10 oz https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...cottish-targe/
25" https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...-horse-shield/

I think of a Large Shield as a larger shield, maybe around three feet.

Examples:
40" https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...dragon-shield/
48" high, but not very wide: https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...n-kite-shield/
46" x 28" https://www.medievalcollectibles.com...usader-shield/

I think of a Tower Shield as over three or four feet high, and at least two feet wide for all of that height, so able to cover most of the body from one direction, or pretty much all of it if you crouch behind it.


I don't think of those small fencing "bucklers" as being a listed weapon in TFT, as the small shield to me represents something larger, different, able to shield rush, and with an effective encumbrance of 10 lbs. If pressed to allow such small bucklers, and willing to concede, I'd either suggest GURPS or make up a TFT house rule where it has some disadvantage over a full Small Shield - maybe able to stop 1 hit but not from missile weapons?
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:50 AM   #27
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Sorry, but no.

As has been stated by others, the encumbrance of 10 lbs. for a small shield is absolutely ridiculous. A rotella (what most would consider a large shield as larsdangly points out) doesn't even weigh that much.

And the actual diameter of a buckler can be up to to 18" - 24"s or so.

We all have preconceived notions of what weapons/shields/armor "should" be. We should all be willing to give them up. This is especially true if we don't have any particular expertise in the subject.

But hey, this is a "fantasy game," no? YMMV.
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:57 AM   #28
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Well the part about what the term "buckler" means is pretty meaningless to TFT, as TFT doesn't even use that word.

Is there a word for bucklers that are 12" or less in diameter?
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:06 AM   #29
Jeff Lord
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

TFT doesn't use a lot of words. Perhaps the armor/shield list could benefit from something like the "Other Names for Weapons" section in ITL p.111.

I stand by my assertion that calling a buckler a small shield is the same as calling a sabre a cutlass.
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:42 AM   #30
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Questions about fencing and two-weapons skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I don't think that is meaningfull;the weights listed for gear are clearly notional suggestions rather than based on rigorous research (as is generally the case for roleplaying games!).
I agree with this point about the weights in this game and really any game. They are there for game balance more so than for historical reference.

With regards to which shield size in real life fits with TFT abstractions, it is not important. To me a small shield is a 2' round or heater with the same square inches or less. In game they would all be 10 lbs. Even bucklers. And large shields would be 3' or more rounds, ovals, heaters and kites. But this is not about game play.

As far as game play, main gauches stop -1 damage. Two Weapons talent allows weapons to stop -2 damage. This applies to all weapons including the MG and it would replace the MG -1, not add to it. This does make the MG (or any weapon) better than the small shield but that is because it is using a talent. Shields have Shield Expertise talent to then make shields stop -2/-3/-4, so at least equal to MG with Two Weapons talent. And Shield Expertise has a lower IQ requirement and no DX prereq.

Thus I still stand by this summary:

MG rules state:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks) <<< no reason to ever do this, since attacking with both is better. This is not a problem
- defend: Defends and MG parries -1 (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)

Two Weapons skill states:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon strikes at AdjDX-4; No parry.
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)

Using MG with Two Weapons/Fencing skill:
- both attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) strikes at AdjDX-4; MG parry -1 damage (only vs 1 handed melee attacks)
- primary weapon attack: Primary weapon strikes using AdjDX; Secondary weapon (MG) parries -2 (only vs melee attacks)
- defend: Defends and both weapons parry for a net -4 (only vs melee attacks)
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