Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Fair fights are great when the unfairness helps the other person...

*squints* I like the cut of your jib, sonny-boy.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

What would have happened if they gathered together and all threw AoA (Double) on the same turn?

He'd probably have retreated from the first attacker and wound up out of range for most of the rest.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

He'd probably have retreated from the first attacker and wound up out of range for most of the rest.

Hmm, yeah, if start out two yards away and add a 2 yard retreat people need pretty high mobility to stick with it. Long weapons help there.

[Adversary]

Stats ~14, skill~18, with points for combat reflexes, fit, high pain threshold, etc., vs. 3-4 stats~10, skill~10 guys seems quite winnable for the pro. Any damage to the face, location -5, requires a knockdown roll. Take a signature move perk, deceptive attack karate punch/face, deceptive attack -2/-1, and you have 18-5-2+1=12- to hit the face, easily bought up to 14 or 15- with a little targeted attack. For very reasonable points (on top of your high skills) you are leaving a guy on the ground and stunned with most of your successful attacks, while their attacks on you are going to take a long time to wear you down.

And I don't think one trained fighter at this level knocking out multiple average joes is unrealistic or cinematic. In real life an average middleweight pro boxer is going to one-shot KO the average guy. It's not hard to find accounts of e.g. MMA fighters getting in bar fights and quickly leaving multiple people unconscious.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Adversary

Stats ~14, skill~18, with points for combat reflexes, fit, high pain threshold, etc., vs. 3-4 stats~10, skill~10 guys seems quite winnable for the pro. Any damage to the face, location -5, requires a knockdown roll. Take a signature move perk, deceptive attack karate punch/face, deceptive attack -2/-1, and you have 18-5-2+1=12- to hit the face, easily bought up to 14 or 15- with a little targeted attack. For very reasonable points (on top of your high skills) you are leaving a guy on the ground and stunned with most of your successful attacks, while their attacks on you are going to take a long time to wear you down.

A knockdown roll is only a 50% chance of stunning for HT 10. A simple face hit doesn't put a penalty on the roll.

And your target can probably retreating dodge for 11-1, so you're getting a knockdown on less than 20% of your punches.

Unless you're hitting hard enough to land Major Wounds.

[Kromm]

One-punching opponents, in real-life or in GURPS, is hard. There are numerous martial-arts forums frequented by reputable instructors. Self-defense and multiple-opponents situations are perennial topics there. You'll find that the overwhelming majority of bona fide teachers – as contrasted with newcomers in love with their new-found martial-arts skills – counsel fleeing from multiple attackers, not counting on "disabling" and "lethal" strikes working on adrenaline-charged street attackers, and not wasting time throwing fancy techniques. The usual advice seems to be "run away, taking whatever potshots you can at people who get too close." I'd recommend the same thing in GURPS.

[Adversary]

Ok, 50% of successful hits instead of 'most' (successful hit presumes opponent does not defend. That's a knockdown and stun 25% of the time if the opponent retreat-dodges every time, which, if you are attacking and stepping back each time as Kromm advises, means at least one foe has to move and attack to reach you each round.

I haven't gamed this out so maybe I am being too optimistic, but seems like you'd stand a good chance of getting two of them on the ground trying to make health rolls to recover and start the long process of climbing back to their feet and getting back in the fight (which is moving away from them as you step back and retreat). Once you are only dealing with two foes you can try a more aggressive option, like trying to cripple a foot, or putting the boot to one of the downed guys while he is at major penalties. Plus, with st 14 and karate 18 you are doing 1d+1 with each hit, 1d+2 with 1 level striking strength, 1d+3 if we can bend the OP's no-weapons condition to allow for armored gloves or a roll of quarters in the palm. That's going to wear the bad guys down pretty fast.

There's a reason why people punch each other in the head in real life.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Adversary

Ok, 50% of successful hits instead of 'most' (successful hit presumes opponent does not defend. That's a knockdown and stun 25% of the time if the opponent retreat-dodges every time, which, if you are attacking and stepping back each time as Kromm advises, means at least one foe has to move and attack to reach you each round.

You forgot you're rolling at 12 to make the hit at all. That brings it to under 20%.

Originally Posted by Adversary

I haven't gamed this out so maybe I am being too optimistic, but seems like you'd stand a good chance of getting two of them on the ground trying to make health rolls to recover and start the long process of climbing back to their feet and getting back in the fight (which is moving away from them as you step back and retreat).

You figure you'll have no problem throwing 10 unpenalized punches while four people try to mob you?

The time it takes to knock the second one down is longer than it will likely take the first to get back up (add in time for them to catch up and you might come out a little ahead). Of course, if you're doing this and not getting hit at all, you'd eventually win by attrition, but the not getting hit at all is a bit tricky. As a secondary of course, not all opponents will spring back into action ASAP after being stunned and left behind by the fight.

[Keiko]

Originally Posted by Kromm

One-punching opponents, in real-life or in GURPS, is hard. There are numerous martial-arts forums frequented by reputable instructors. Self-defense and multiple-opponents situations are perennial topics there. You'll find that the overwhelming majority of bona fide teachers – as contrasted with newcomers in love with their new-found martial-arts skills – counsel fleeing from multiple attackers, not counting on "disabling" and "lethal" strikes working on adrenaline-charged street attackers, and not wasting time throwing fancy techniques. The usual advice seems to be "run away, taking whatever potshots you can at people who get too close." I'd recommend the same thing in GURPS.

Good to know...

Are there any mechanical tweaks that could change this situation?

[Kromm]

The mechanical tweaks are basically "use near-cinematic or cinematic rules": Allow PCs to buy Enhanced Defenses, Enhanced Time Sense, Extra Attacks, Trained by a Master, and as much Luck as they can afford, plus unrealistically high levels of DX, Basic Speed, Basic Move, and skill. Permit players to select any combat option that costs FP or character points to invoke . . . while denying these to NPCs, who are subject to "mook rules" such as Cannon Fodder and Melee Etiquette instead.

Under those circumstances, even lone, unarmed PCs who choose to stand and fight can take on mobs.