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Old 03-31-2014, 12:28 PM   #11
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
So I come to the forums to tap the wealth of knowledge and experience of this community. How do YOU overcome the odds when confronted with multiple opponents in melee combat?
Basically, you have to minimize the number of foes who can strike at you on any given turn. Your goal is to try to make a series of one-on-one fights. If you can seize a chokepoint, great. But in an open-area encounter, to that end:

- Use your mobility - especially if you can reduce the mobility of the attackers through injury or just getting in each others' way. This can be using full Move actions to run and hopefully get the opponents strung out in a line.

- Don't get stuck in place. Strikes are better than grapples for this, since you want both of your arms for Parries. Sweeps are okay, too, because they can leverage your skill to get you more mobility.

- Fight defensively - and this can include Defensive Attack - and worry most about maximizing your defenses instead of taking someone out. Only get really aggressive (Committed Attack, All-Out Attack) if you've got no other option.

- Retreat when it serves to string your opponents out.

- Try to Intimidate your opponents, especially if you can pretty horrifyingly take one out (we call this the "bite his ear off and spit it at his friends" move.) If you can take someone out and then do this, try it.

- get a weapon if you can.

By the way, this applies to armed combat, too, assuming you've basically got the same reach as your opponents and aren't forced to get aggressive to close and strike.


Two things I forgot:

- consider hitting extremities - Over HP/4 cripples, and that's not that much. Aggressive Parry is a good way to start, but if you can smash a hand or foot your opponent will have to deal with Stunning and Knockdown, cutting the odds against you down momentarily or permanently.

- Feint is really useful, and doesn't commit you to anything. Use it to ensure your strikes hit. Better a few that land than a lot that don't.
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Last edited by Peter V. Dell'Orto; 03-31-2014 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Forgot stuff
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalillama View Post
[...] realistically your choices are Get Armed or Use Cinematic Rules. This is really your problem here: 1 person who can reliably beat down 3-4 other people while unarmed isn't that realistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
But one on many with no cinema, no weapons is bad juju. Expect to lose unless you can intimidate them into hesitation.
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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
You are going to lose. [...] Realistic people can't handle multiple opponents with any degree of reliability absent weapons (preferably ranged weapons being used at range), cinematics or supernatural abilities.
These voices are those of wisdom . . . GURPS is a fairly realistic system out of the box, and in reality, many-on-one fights are a bad idea no matter how (realistically) trained and how (realistically) athletic you might be. The idea of one person taking on and defeating mobs comes from action movies – not real life. If you want such scenes in your games, switch on cinematic options (particularly high levels of Enhanced Defenses and Extra Attack, Trained by a Master, and allowing PCs to buy success with points). If you're opting out of that, then don't build PCs (if a player) or stage crucial fights (if a GM) around the premise that an individual can defeat multiple opponents.

I'm not talking through my hat. I run a high-powered secret-agents campaign that skirts the borders between "realistic" (no cinematic or superhuman abilities, no superscience, no paranormal phenomena, all "harsh realism" options in effect) and "cinematic" (mandatory Luck, plus high point totals devoted to improbably high skill levels and breadth of training). My signature contains a link to recaps of events there, and I think those accounts fairly convey the feel of the game. Anyway, even there, the only way the ace fighters defeat multiple foes is by (1) having their teammates run interference for them, grappling, slamming, and otherwise confusing the issue, (2) ambushing their rivals, and/or (3) procuring a weapon as soon as possible.

If you must do things the hard way (and yes, sometimes I force the PCs in my game to do that), Peter has great advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post

[...]minimize the number of foes who can strike at you on any given turn.

Strikes are better than grapples

[...]worry most about maximizing your defenses instead of taking someone out

Retreat when it serves to string your opponents out.

Feint is really useful, and doesn't commit you to anything. Use it to ensure your strikes hit. Better a few that land than a lot that don't.
Inasmuch as I have seen many-on-one fights leave PCs not-dead, the success stories have all involved:
  • Having higher Move, and using it for periodic Move maneuvers away from the enemy and toward a chokepoint.
  • Always stepping back after an attack and retreating whenever possible on the defense.
  • Never, ever, ever getting tied up in grappling matches that let your rival's associates catch up.
  • Never bothering with an attack that can't benefit from at least one and preferably several of Feint, Deceptive Attack, and the target being at a penalty for posture, stun, or attack from the side.
  • Using any turn when you can't move away or make a tricky strike to focus on defense, with All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge) being king because it lets you move away and aids defense.
That is, the players followed Peter's advice. The "stand and bang" approach is just dumb if you're outnumbered, while grappling – particularly ground grappling – is an invitation to be swarmed and defeated.

The only further comment I would make is that you avoid anything with an elevated risk of causing you to fall down. Obviously, you can't avoid critical misses without Luck, and there's little you can do about successful enemy throws or Sweeps . . . but you can avoid kicks that could miss and leave you flat on your back, him-or-me close-combat moves such as standard Basic Set takedowns, and Move and Attack maneuvers that penalize rolls to stay standing.

Alternating "Feint and step back, let him rush, then a Defensive Attack punch as a Deceptive Attack to a random hit location and step back" works well. Take the Defensive Attack bonus to your hand parry, and use that against your enemy or one of his allies. Claim the retreat bonus against and move away from another of his allies. If things get too hot, there's no harm in using Move to string out your enemies. This might encourage them to Move and Attack (a great chance to land a hit on them!) or slam (which sets up Trip).
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Old 03-31-2014, 02:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

The firs tthing I'd throw in here is consider getting the Feint technique and a combination if you can afford it. Rapid Striking in a non-cinematic game is usually a mug's game, because the -6 penalty is crippling, and doing it with a Feint is awful. However, if you have Feint-22 and Combination: Feint + Judo Throw with 3 points of attack penalty bought off, you could Parry someone, then feint against a respectable 19 and make the judo throw at 13 with a mild Deceptive Attack giving them a -1 to defend. Against skill-14 foes, you'd effectively be dropping their Parry from 8 or 9 to 4 or 5, which means those judo throws will go through and they're much more likely to end up on the ground.

If you also grab Arm Lock as a maxed out technique... well, you're a bit points inefficient, but even without a combo, you can rapid strike a feint and arm lock at 16 each, so if you manage to isolate one guy, you can grab him, lock him, wrestle him for a few seconds until you succeed in a throw from a lock, and then run away from any of his pals that have caught up and repeat the cycle.

The other thing you should strongly consider is Peripheral Vision (if you don't have it already). I'd strongly consider dropping Very Fit down to Fit to get Peripheral Vision. On a many against one fight, Peripheral Vision means that the bad guys can't get free hits in from behind and limits the number of them that can get flank bonuses. It's a huge advantage in those situations.
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Old 03-31-2014, 02:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
But one on many with no cinema, no weapons is bad juju. Expect to lose unless you can intimidate them into hesitation.
Yeah, this. I'm not bad in a fight, but I've only ever been able to deal with two or three opponents at a time with minimal damage to myself (cuts, bruises, etc.) - and I learned the hard way, by getting my butt beat. I was in a fight at high school once that was seven on one (guess who the one was?) and one of them had a knife. I went after that guy first and ended up getting a 4-inch gash on my left forearm for my trouble. All the while, I got pounded by the other guys as I wailed on their pal with the blade so he'd drop it. In the end, I "won" after biting off a chunk of one of the other guys' ears, making the thug-lite's stop long enough for a cop to show up. But I was barely standing and ended up in the hospital by the end. I was a giant walking bruise with a couple of cracked ribs, 44 stitches (yay for jagged cuts), and a concussion that wouldn't quit.

So my advice is this: don't. If you can help it, just don't. If you can't, fight with everything you got and make every hit count. Go for high-value targets (knees are a personal favorite), spit, bite, throw things, and keep moving if you can. That last one is important, unless you are in an easily defensible area (doorways, higher-ground on a set of stairs, etc.) or know the area well, just keep moving. The last thing you want is to get cornered. Especially with a small mob of people out for your blood. That's one of the first things you learn when working a parking lot as a bouncer. Do not get cornered - you will regret it. Try to separate your targets too so they can't rush you. Again, going for the legs, foot, knees, are going to be your best bet - testicles too. There is no such thing as a fair fight - it's the winner and the loser.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

Thanks for all of the great feedback. There are certainly some thought-provoking suggestions here.

However, I feel like maybe I didn't do a very good job of articulating what I was looking for.

So let me take another stab at clearing up some of the haze in this thread so we can get down to brass tacks.

1. "Being outnumbered sucks." I never meant to imply otherwise. But like it or not, it will likely happen in a GURPS campaign. And without super powers or cinematic rules, there still HAS to be a way of improving your odds of coming out on the other side of such encounter in a non dead/unconscious/hospitalized state.

2. Yes, when faced with superior numbers, the smart thing to do is run. I thought I did a good job of explaining that I understand this. It is the tactically smart thing to do. But what if you can't? HOW do you cope with that situation when running, for whatever reason, is NOT an option? Saying "well you should just run" doesn't really help.

3. "Don't do it, you WILL lose." Okay...so you are telling me that if you were playing a GURPS campaign and found yourself in the scenario I spelled out in my original post, you'd simply lie down on the ground and go fetal? Even if you are doomed to lose, you'd do SOMETHING, right? Make some effort to defend yourself or at least take as many bastards as you could with you, right? So HOW would you do that?

4. "Stay mobile and don't let them surround you." That's fantastic advice, but it's so generic as to not be really all that helpful. HOW do you do that, mechanically, in GURPS? Kromm and a few others actually articulated some examples like Feint, step, defensive attack, retreat, etc. THAT sort of feedback is what I was looking for. Sorry if I wasn't more clear in my original post.

I know that pulling a Jason Bourne requires some very cinematic rules/options. I never said that I expected to be able to reproduce scenes from The Raid: Redemption, nor has that even been by goal.

But if a strong, fit, well trained combat veteran cannot effectively deal with 2 to 4 Brawling 10 street punks, then I figured I must be making poor choices with my maneuvers/techniques/tactics rather than the fact that a core conceit of GURPS is that you just cannot do it without cinematic rules/buddies/guns.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:04 PM   #16
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

I think they key takeaway, which you clearly received, is that even a strong, fit, and well trained guy is going to require a lot of luck facing a certain type of foe.

It's also going to depend a bit on what you mean by "strong, fit, and trained."

Are we talking, say, ST 13, DX 12, HT 11 + Fit, and (say) two fighting skills, maybe Karate and Judo, at DX+2 for 14-?

OK, that's not bad, a capable foe. The SEALS in Vietnam template with the "Unarmed Combat Instructor" lens only gets Brawling-14 and Judo-12!

So with two combat skils at 14, you're an "entry level butt kicker."

from the post above, here's what I said about that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaming Ballistic: Melee Combat Skills
Skill-14
Attack: OK. Now we're talking. We're not talking too loudly, since you still can't hit someone in the face more than 50% of the time without resorting to Attack Options, but you can thrust to the vitals at 62% and give up nothing on the attack, or take a small penalty to defend (CA) and be at 83%. With an AoA(Determined) you can even go Deceptive, and inflict -2 to your foe's defense and still hit 90% of the time. Better be sure he'll go down with that blow, though.

Defense: Raw Parry and Block is now 50% (Parry/Block-10), and with the right set of options and Advantages, can start to get serious. Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Parry, Defensive Attack (+1) or All-Out Defense (conctrated) for +2, a DB +2 shield and a retreat (+1) and you're adding a whopping 6-7 to this raw 10, giving you an "I'm doing nothing else but defending" total of 16-17. Effectively, at this point, lacking a skilled opponent or critical hit, you're barely touchable if you go All Turtle, All The Time. At this point, especially if you have that shield and can give ground, you can Parry or Block over 80% of strikes and still have a viable offense. Your foes really have to ponder Deceptive Attacks of their own, or hope for criticals, because getting through your defenses is going to be a neat trick.

I'd call Skill-14 "entry level ass kickers." You no longer suck.
OK, for strictly unarmed, this would change as follows:

Skill-14

Attack: You still can't hit someone in the face more than 50% of the time without resorting to Attack Options, but you can grapple a limb 83% of the time, or strike to break an elbow or knee 75% without resorting to attack options. By taking a small penalty to defend and electing Committed Attack, you attack at a near-certainty.

However, if you're outnumbered, by and large your attacks will be Defensive, not Committed and certainly not All-Out.

Defense: Raw Parry and Block is now 50% (Parry/Block-10), and with Combat Reflexes (+1), Enhanced Parry (probably +1 if at all), Defensive Attack (+1) and and a retreat (+3 with Judo or Karate) and you're adding a whopping Parry-16 or Parry-17.

Effectively, at this point, lacking a skilled opponent or critical hit, you're barely touchable if you go All Turtle, All The Time. The issue with multiple foes is that while yo do get one parry per hand (two total), that third and fourth attacker are at -4 (again, per hand), and you may only retreat against one foe.

So your defenses are likely something like:

Parry1: Stand your ground, right hand, Parry-12 (75%)
Parry2: Stand your ground, left hand, Parry-12 (75%)
Parry3: Retreat, right hand, -4 for second parry: Parry-11 (62%)
Parry4: Stand your ground, left hand, Parry-8 (25%) or Dodge-10 (50%)
Parry4+ then is all Dodge, probably at Dodge-10 if you bought up your Speed/Move properly. +1 for Combat Reflexes.

Even with "only" three attacks, you've got about a one in three chance of not getting hit each turn. That fourth attack means you're getting hit five times in six.

From that perspective, whittling down your foes to three and then two is really key, and if you can retreat vs your first guy and put him the hell down, that turns into Parry-15, Parry-17 with AoD, enough to Riposte and lower his chance to resist a Judo Throw or crippling leg shot.

My instinct, though optimization experts will chime in, is to guess you'll be taking AoD half-moves with +2 to Dodge (still only 12-, but 12 or less vs everything that turn) to try and string your foes out, then AoD (Parry) and Riposte to max out a Judo Parry, then either Judo Throw (an attack, with your foe suffering a Riposte penalty perhaps) or a crippling karate strike to a limb.

While arm locks and throws from locks seem tempting, I suspect they'll get you pounded if you're in the parking lot alluded to earlier.


Judo-18

Now, if you happen to be in the Judo-18 territory, then your base Parry (with CR, Retreat, and AoD/Parry) is Parry-18, or Parry-15 without the retreat. So now you can stand your ground vs more guys with much higher certainty, and your ripostes, vs mookish foes, can carry real issues.

Retreat vs. the first guy and stick that bonus to parry into a Riposte, and then some. Parry-14 and a -4 Riposte vs that first attacker, and he's probably Parry-6 or so. Your Judo Throw is near-certain to land, and then you need to take a turn or two - probably two - to leave the area at a half-move per turn (AoD/Dodge). If you've stunned the first guy, he will take two turns to get to standing plus whatever time he takes to unstun. Maybe one half-move to clear the region and then another Parry to set up another Judo throw.
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

One of the better investments you could make would be Move 11, if the GM will permit; a Step (and Retreat) of 2 is a big advantage for turning that many-to-one fight into a series of one-to-one fights.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
-VERY skilled and capable character (ST 14, DX 13, HT 13, Judo/Karate @ 18, Very Fit, combat reflexes, etc.)
Actually, I kinda like your odds.

You have three worthwhile defenses: two parries (at 13) and one retreating dodge (also at 13). As long as you can keep them from attacking more than three times a round, they're going to hit you about once for every six successful strikes - and if they're hitting with Brawling 10, that's about once every twelve attempted attacks.

They have active defenses of 8, or 11 with a retreating dodge. But your average damage, with ST 14 and high Karate, is 3.5 per punch - not enough to cripple a limb, and you don't have enough skill to attempt skull hits. With a deceptive attack to the torso, you can expect to hit about 2/3 of the time (considering their defense).

At that rate, for every hit you take, you will have inflicted about 2 1/2ish, for an average of 9 total points of damage, which will almost knock one out (though you might have to wait a couple seconds for them to drop). With HT 14, you can take 10 points of damage before slowing down, which is about 5 of their hits - but note that by that time you should have dropped about 4 of them. If that means that at some point you're facing less than three attempted attacks a round, your advantage increases considerably.

Alternately, if you use kicks and aim for the legs, you'll have about a 1-in-3 chance to hit, and about a 1-in-6 to cripple. A guy with a crippled leg is probably effectively out of this fight, which means that you can take out one of them almost every time one hits you.

This is, of course, a very simplistic view of how the fight could go. Defensive attacks and alternating between feints and attacks might help, if they're stupid enough to keep falling for the feints.

Quote:
Kromm and a few others actually articulated some examples like Feint, step, defensive attack, retreat, etc.
Attack and Step back. Retreat when you Dodge. All Out Defense (Improved Dodge) will move you an extra hex back or to the side, or three forward (although moving forward will probably put you in a bad position with your back to the group, unless the others have all run behind you in an attempt to surround/flank you).

Last edited by Xplo; 03-31-2014 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

However, I feel like maybe I didn't do a very good job of articulating what I was looking for.
I think you did. It's just that what you're looking for is close to a contradiction.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

And without super powers or cinematic rules, there still HAS to be a way of improving your odds of coming out on the other side of such encounter in a non dead/unconscious/hospitalized state.
Yes: (1) run away; (2) use social means, such as negotiation, intimidation, or surrender; or (3) obtain a deadly weapon, preferably a ranged one, PDQ. Those are the realistic ways. The other ways are cinematic. Life really is that nasty.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

But what if you can't? HOW do you cope with that situation when running, for whatever reason, is NOT an option?
You've cut out #1 (running), so you're down to #2 (social solutions) or #3 (weapons). And then there's having cinematic abilities.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

Even if you are doomed to lose, you'd do SOMETHING, right? Make some effort to defend yourself or at least take as many bastards as you could with you, right? So HOW would you do that?
If options #1-3 are right out, and you're willing to settle for the "poison pill" approach, then just wade in doing All-Out Attack (Feint) until you fail a HT roll. You'll die, but you'll take some with you.

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

"Stay mobile and don't let them surround you." That's fantastic advice, but it's so generic as to not be really all that helpful. HOW do you do that, mechanically, in GURPS?
Ultimately, it'll depend on the combat map: cover, chokepoints, elevation, etc. However, the core concepts are never stepping nearer to a foe, getting bogged down by grappling, or risking combat options that carry the risk of falling down; always stepping away after an attack or as part of a defense, given the chance; and almost always sacrificing your chance to attack in favor of an All-Out Defense (Increased Dodge) or a Move if you'd have to step nearer to attack, or even if staying put or merely stepping away would let more than one foe reach you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

But if a strong, fit, well trained combat veteran cannot effectively deal with 2 to 4 Brawling 10 street punks, then I figured I must be making poor choices with my maneuvers/techniques/tactics rather than the fact that a core conceit of GURPS is that you just cannot do it without cinematic rules/buddies/guns.
A strong, fit, well-trained combat veteran might be able to deal with two essentially unskilled punks, but probably not more than two. Such a person deals with gang attacks by (1) avoiding situations where they can happen, (2) preparing properly, such as by carrying weapons, when avoiding those situations isn't possible, or (3) either running away or using social tools when caught unprepared. If he walks into a dangerous situation unarmed, gets jumped, and stands and fights instead of using either his vaunted fitness to flee or the psychological end of the force spectrum to defuse the situation, he isn't well-trained. There's really no way an unequipped human being can avoid being flanked and severely injured in a stand-up fight with a group large enough to surround him.

GURPS depends largely on the player looking at the foes and the scenery on the map, selecting the best maneuvers and movement paths, and hoping that his choices work. There's no purpose-built "Group Tactics" ability or combat option in the game that one can point to and say, "Use this." Or to be precise, the abilities for fighting groups are extra attacks and defenses, which are almost all cinematic. If those aren't on the table, then it really does boil down to "follow this general advice, but your PC is risking death regardless."
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: Martial Arts: Facing multiple opponents

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post

One of the better investments you could make would be Move 11, if the GM will permit; a Step (and Retreat) of 2 is a big advantage for turning that many-to-one fight into a series of one-to-one fights.
Echoed.



Granted, that approach is borderline-realistic. I'd call such a person cinematic. However, the game doesn't put the brakes on until you've bought +2.00 to Basic Speed and +3 to Basic Move, so even a DX 12, HT 12 warrior who starts with Basic Speed 6.00 can get up to Basic Speed 8.00, Basic Move 11, and a step of 2. A rules lawyer would be hard-pressed to argue against that.

With Move 11, you can run backward as fast as normal people can run forward, and you can actually turn, run, and open up a lead against normal and even slightly faster-than-normal people in just a one Move maneuver. You can retreat two yards if someone runs up for a slam. And you can dart in, tag people, and dart back without giving ground. It's a huge advantage!

Personally, I find Extra Attack 1 more plausible than the warrior-sprinter, but the OP's GM might not. Of course, I'd permit Extra Attack 1 in any campaign that allows "realistic" combat veterans to have Judo-18 and Karate-18 . . . Even the baddest modern-day badasses don't train anywhere near enough to be that capable, whereas being cool enough under fire and coordinated enough to get off extra shots is almost exactly what such people do train for. Remember, Extra Attack 1 doesn't mean you're literally twice as fast; it's an abstraction that means your OODA loop is tighter and you do more useful stuff in the time allotted.
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