GIN Ultra-Lite

[Archangel Beth]

Semi-restrained mobility, really -- it is nearly impossible to corner a mouse so much that it couldn't jump up and over one's hand. Of course, it might be that such a feat -- while with in its Agi/Dex -- would require an Int roll to consider when the Giant Cup of Doom (actually salvation) is coming at it.

(It's usually easier to get the best hunter among the cats to bring me the stunned mouse. >_> )

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Still looking for the Kyrio Force requirements; I know I've seen them before, but for the life of me I can't seem to find them.

Define Kyrio Force Requirements? Should be in Choir Mechanics section... Page 103 of the Core Rules -- the part that overlaps onto the Mercurians' page.


*beth makes grumpy noises*

For some reason, the whole Size/Forces thing is going in one eye and out the other, so to type. >_> I'm not sure if that's because I'm tired and/or coming down with the kid's Sick, or if it has tripped into the realm where I mutter things about KINS. O:/

[dataweaver]

Thanks; I'll check it out when I get home.

The business about the Agl modifiers is something of a kludge, intended primarily to adjust for the fact that low-Force characters will tend to have low Agl scores whereas small characters shouldn't (and similarly for high-Force creatures and large creatures). It's for reasons like this that I suggested decoupling Agl, Pre, and Per from Forces over in the IN2e thread: if low-Force characters tend only to have lower Str but not lower Agl, you don't need to do any tap-dancing to get the numbers to turn out properly for them. Likewise with larger creatures.

In short, the size rules I'm proposing seem messy because they are messy; and they're messy because coupling finesse-like characteristics to Forces is messy. Size just amplifies the problem to the point that it can't reasonably be ignored.

[Archangel Beth]

I wonder if the issue is that we're treating animals like player characters... When instead, we should be treating them like NPCs, and just fiating their stats. Yes, it's probably worth a page of "here's how you build animals," with something like, "At this Size, an animal should have X-Y Strength and Z-Q Agility" in a table, and the stuff about caps on Int -- but the rest is Corp/Eth/Cel Forces and flat statistics. (With a comment about "yeah, you can vary by a point or two if you want a good/bad representation of the species.")

So... Reduce the numbers to that page or half-page of a table, and go on from there.



The other issue I'd want to think about is Forces. In original IN, humans are supposed to be the top of the food chain at 5 Forces, 6 is a Soldier, etc. They're very granular in that respect. Animals having lots of extra CorpForces is, in one sense, elegant in the use of Forces... But in another sense, it's EITHER going to break the whole concept of "Humans are the Closest Species to God" theory, or it's going to need a lampshade with a bullseye painted on it, with the notion that many/most animals can hear the Symphony, and could learn Songs if they had the brains for it.

(Soldiers of God with a Porpoise in life...)

If we want to keep the original IN concept of Forces, the Size modifier would probably be affecting only the base characteristics -- i.e., the elephant starts with a base of 20 Str and X Agi, and its 1-3 CorpForces add their bits normally. (For a weak/average/powerful elephant.)

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

If we want to keep the original IN concept of Forces, the Size modifier would probably be affecting only the base characteristics -- i.e., the elephant starts with a base of 20 Str and X Agi, and its 1-3 CorpForces add their bits normally. (For a weak/average/powerful elephant.)

That would be my thought (Although there is the precedent of Rusty... :) ). It would still be justifiable to grade the number of Forces a Kyriotate/user of Song of Possession requires to possess an animal based on size in the sense of 'takes that much of the Kyrio's vital energies to keep it going.' Because, honestly, that's the big reason to worry about how many Forces an animal has. Humans, in that case are probably effectively 3 'corp Forces' with another 2 or 3 required for the Kyrio to also suppress the human mind, because humans are extra special.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

I wonder if the issue is that we're treating animals like player characters... When instead, we should be treating them like NPCs, and just fiating their stats. Yes, it's probably worth a page of "here's how you build animals," with something like, "At this Size, an animal should have X-Y Strength and Z-Q Agility" in a table, and the stuff about caps on Int -- but the rest is Corp/Eth/Cel Forces and flat statistics. (With a comment about "yeah, you can vary by a point or two if you want a good/bad representation of the species.")

So... Reduce the numbers to that page or half-page of a table, and go on from there.

Perhaps; but with animal vessels in general and Jordi's attitudes in particular (not to mention the living artifact in Liber Reliquarum that was once a dog), I'd be hesitant to flat-out say that animals are firmly in the realm of NPCs; I'd consider that as a worst-case scenario, a last resort to go to if nothing else works.

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

The other issue I'd want to think about is Forces. In original IN, humans are supposed to be the top of the food chain at 5 Forces, 6 is a Soldier, etc. They're very granular in that respect. Animals having lots of extra CorpForces is, in one sense, elegant in the use of Forces... But in another sense, it's EITHER going to break the whole concept of "Humans are the Closest Species to God" theory, or it's going to need a lampshade with a bullseye painted on it, with the notion that many/most animals can hear the Symphony, and could learn Songs if they had the brains for it.

(Soldiers of God with a Porpoise in life...)

If we want to keep the original IN concept of Forces, the Size modifier would probably be affecting only the base characteristics -- i.e., the elephant starts with a base of 20 Str and X Agi, and its 1-3 CorpForces add their bits normally. (For a weak/average/powerful elephant.)

OK. Going with this idea, we shouldn't tie Forces to Size at all; if a mouse has fewer Forces than a cat, a dog, or an elephant, it's only because the mouse is "simpler", not because it's smaller. And if a mouse isn't simpler than a cat, it shouldn't have fewer Forces. With this in mind, most animals should probably have 2 or 3 Forces; I'd default to 3, as that's the minimum needed to be able to allocate one Force to each Realm. As is, this requires the typical animal to skip out on the Ethereal or Celestial Realms entirely if it wants more than one Corporeal Force. Animals that are little more than "organic machines" should only have one Force (always Corporeal); animals that are smarter than that, but still dumber than the average bear, will have two Forces and will be forced to skimp on either Ethereal or Celestial Forces, while borderline-sapient animals such as chimps and dolphins should get four Forces. Like humans, there might be remarkable individuals who exceed these limits by one or (very rarely) two Forces.

With this in mind, the primary effect of Size can be viewed as a flat modifier to Strength. There might still be an effect on Agility (because, well, mice are much more nimble than elephants, and in no small part due to their small size — or rather, due to the much more slender build that its small size allows); but compared to the drastic changes that happen to Strength, these Agility changes should be relatively minor. Probably best to just call it a wash, and say that Size alters Strength only, with its only other effect being a suggested situational modifier for purposes such as spotting or targeting. There should also be a connection between the Size bonus and the number of Forces it takes for a celestial to possess a host of that size, though it shouldn't be a linear relationship.

Also, Size is a feature of the Vessel: one celestial can have multiple Vessels with very different Sizes, and his Strength should be adjusted accordingly for each. Personally, I'd also allow Vessels to have unusually slender or bulky builds, trading a few points of Strength for Agility or vice versa, and possibly with some constraints on how much can be traded based on Size. The real purpose of this would be to allow a celestial to choose between a sleek-and-fast "sports car" model vs. a sturdy-but-not-so-lithe "pickup truck" model; but it would also address the "nimble mouse and lumbering elephant" issue.

Humans and animals, not having vessels, would typically have these characteristic modifications integrated directly into their characteristics as a shorthand; but in those rare cases where they make use of Corporeal traits while having some sort of out-of-body experience (e.g., ghosts), the "body mods" (be it size, build, or anything else) would probably not apply.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Going with this idea, we shouldn't tie Forces to Size at all; if a mouse has fewer Forces than a cat, a dog, or an elephant, it's only because the mouse is "simpler", not because it's smaller

This description makes my In Nomine instincts (INstincts?) jump up and down and go, "Yes, yes, that's the in-game explanation! That's perfect!"

With this in mind, the primary effect of Size can be viewed as a flat modifier to Strength. [...] Probably best to just call it a wash, and say that Size alters Strength only, with its only other effect being a suggested situational modifier for purposes such as spotting or targeting. There should also be a connection between the Size bonus and the number of Forces it takes for a celestial to possess a host of that size, though it shouldn't be a linear relationship.

*nod* Though I'm also happy enough if only Servitor of Jordi can possess really big hosts, as well as only the really teeny ones.

Also, Size is a feature of the Vessel: one celestial can have multiple Vessels with very different Sizes, and his Strength should be adjusted accordingly for each.

This may be overly complex -- anytime you've got Kyriotates involved, who slip into and out of other people's bodies, using them as temp-vessels, something that causes the GM or player to have to re-calculate Strength each time is going to make GMs cry. Especially if the Kyriotate of Jordi decides to assault someone with two squirrels, three bobcats, and a pony. (The Kyriotate of Novalis can add in the pear tree.)

I'd be somewhat more inclined to handle the Strength thing at the level of "small Size = poor leverage = penalty to damage" on one end, since it would be less likely to cause concept errata in prior works (exact mechanics are more easily fudged, of course).

But that does leave the big end open, as it has been: should the celestial's Strength dominate, so that a wimpy Kyriotate attempting to possess even a small elephant will find its legs buckling under it? Or should one assume that the animal's native strength allows it to at least stand up, even possessed?

[dataweaver]

As you pointed out with the elephant, this isn't just a matter of leverage: if a Kyrio's Strength is insufficient to support the weight of an elephant host, it's also enough to turn an ordinary mouse into Mighty Mouse: put the strength of an ordinary human into something that weighs as little as a mouse, and it should be able to quite literally leap tall buildings in a single bound — and not just tall from a mouse's perspective, but tall from a human's perspective. IMHO, a creature's Strength needs to be adjusted to account for its size.

FWIW, I'm not actually thinking in terms of "size" so much as "size class". I'm not worried about the difference between a 5'6" man and a 7' giant of a man; I'm more concerned with the difference between a wolf and a man or a man and a horse. I still haven't found it (maybe it's in the Angelic Player's Guide? Or was it in the Corporeal Player's Guide?), but I'm absolutely certain that I saw a chart somewhere that listed the number of Forces needed to possess something in one column and some examples of animals that qualify in the right column. It went from 1 to 6 Forces and stopped, with a footnote talking about larger creatures; and humans were listed under the 5 Forces entry. Once I find that chart, I want to use it as the basis for handling the effects of Size on Strength: add a column that lists a Strength modifier for each Size Class, and then assign a Size Class to each Vessel or potential host.

That Size Class has two purposes: it tells you how many Forces you need to possess that body (remember, Forces have nothing to do with Size; so the fact that a human has five Forces is no longer relevant to how many Forces it takes to possess his body — or the fact that he's human-sized isn't relevant, and it takes as many Forces to possess a mouse as an elephant; but I suspect the former), and it tells you how the host's Strength changes when you possess it (as I see it, we can't just use the host's stats, or else there's no reason for a Kyrio or Shedite to invest in Corporeal Forces). The second entry might be a number to add to Strength (the simplest route, I think), or it might be a factor to multiply Strength by (which might be cleaner, but is likely to make the math-challenged look at you cross-eyed; especially since it would have to be a fraction for sizes less than 5. That said, we could probably keep it to something simple like 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5).

[Archangel Beth]

Hmmm.

There's Page 191 of the core rules...

APG, p. 50, talks about inherent skill in some of Jordi's vessels (Bloodhounds/Tracking).

GMG, p. 18, notes that this is not automatic for all animal vessels.

GIN, p. 30, has a mention about GIN Kyrios and animals.

AH-HA! Found it, betcha! Ethereal Player's Guide, p. 68!


Note that in the interests of KINS, the only multipliers (dividers) that are likely to be useful are 1/2 and 1/4th. (My spouse and kid may divide by thirds in their heads, but I can't do that anymore, and 5ths are right out as well.)

[dataweaver]

Thank you! That's it!

Now, the upper end of that scale is more compressed than I remember (horses being the same Size as humans? Wow!) I'd personally be more comfortable if the likes of horses and bears were Size 6, with rhinos, elephants, small whales, and cars being Size 7 and dinosaurs, blue whales, and trucks being Size 8 and up. (Also, some of those example animals seem off: a deer is smaller than a human? Not likely: some recalibration of the small end of the scale would seem reasonable.)

Anyway, let's standardize this as a Size rating, with humans being Size 5. With an explicit Size rating in play, it might be worth tweaking the Body Hits formula to include it as a factor: currently, we're using Strength + Corp Forces + 2×Vessel×Corp Forces, which produces reasonable results but is messy. How about if we change it to, say, Strength + Corp Forces + Vessel×Size? This does two things: first, it gives a much cleaner formula, with each factor coming into the calculation exactly once; second, it takes the Corp. Forces out of the formula for how many Body Hits the Vessel provides. But does it work? Some numbers for Size 5 (which most players will be):

Str + CF + Vessel×Size
1 CF/8 Str/0-6 Vessel: 9/14/19/24/29/34/39 Body Hits
2 CF/10 Str/0-6 Vessel: 12/17/22/27/32/37/42 Body Hits
3 CF/12 Str/0-6 Vessel: 15/20/25/30/35/40/45 Body Hits
4 CF/14 Str/0-6 Vessel: 18/23/28/33/38/43/48 Body Hits
5 CF/16 Str/0-6 Vessel: 21/26/31/36/41/46/51 Body Hits
6 CF/18 Str/0-6 Vessel: 24/29/34/39/44/49/54 Body Hits

Baseline human: 2 Corp/10 Str/0 Vessel: 12 Body Hits
Baseline celestial: 3 Corp/12 Str/3 Vessel: 30 Body Hits

OK; so far, so good. Next up, how does Size affect Strength? At Size 5, it doesn't; let's keep that as a given. Let's start with the simplest assumption, that each step down from 5 reduces your effective Strength by 1, and each step up from 5 increases it by 1. Let's assume 2 CF across the board, and only vary the Size:

Str + CF + Vessel×Size
Size 1/Str 6/0-6 Vessel: 8/9/10/11/12/13/14 Body Hits
Size 2/Str 7/0-6 Vessel: 9/11/13/15/17/19/21 Body Hits
Size 3/Str 8/0-6 Vessel: 10/13/16/19/22/25/28 Body Hits
Size 4/Str 9/0-6 Vessel: 11/15/19/23/27/31/35 Body Hits
Size 5/Str 10/0-6 Vessel: 12/17/22/27/32/37/42 Body Hits
Size 6/Str 11/0-6 Vessel: 13/19/25/31/37/43/49 Body Hits
Size 7/Str 12/0-6 Vessel: 14/21/28/35/42/49/56 Body Hits

Hmm… those numbers seem to work well in terms of what the Vessels contribute; but they seem off in terms of what creatures without Vessels (i.e., humans and animals) get: 8 Body Hits for a mouse, and 14 Body Hits for an elephant? Too compact. As well, Str 6 seems awfully strong for a mouse, and Str 12 seems awfully weak for an elephant. Lets see what happens if we double the adjustment to ±2 Str per Size:

Str + CF + Vessel×Size
Size 1/Str 2/0-6 Vessel: 4/5/6/7/8/9/10 Body Hits
Size 2/Str 4/0-6 Vessel: 6/8/10/12/14/16/18 Body Hits
Size 3/Str 6/0-6 Vessel: 8/11/14/17/20/23/26 Body Hits
Size 4/Str 8/0-6 Vessel: 10/14/18/22/26/30/34 Body Hits
Size 5/Str 10/0-6 Vessel: 12/17/22/27/32/37/42 Body Hits
Size 6/Str 12/0-6 Vessel: 14/20/26/32/38/44/50 Body Hits
Size 7/Str 14/0-6 Vessel: 16/23/30/37/44/51/58 Body Hits

First of all, that's about as low as I dare go in terms of reducing Str for small creatures: any more of a discount, and you'll have two-CF mice with negative Strengths. I think that the floor should be 0 Str and 1 CF: in that worst-case scenario, the creature would get 1 Body Hit before factoring in Toughness or Vessel.

With that in mind, I think that the numbers from Size 1 to Size 5 are reasonable; it's only when you go above Size 5 that you run into an issue: +2 Str per Size above 5 just isn't enough. Let's say that starting at Size 5, you go with a multiplier: ×1 for Size 5, ×2 for Size 6, ×3 for Size 7, and so on (if the GM wants to take it any further). So:

Str + CF + Vessel×Size
Size 1/Str 2/0-6 Vessel: 4/5/6/7/8/9/10 Body Hits
Size 2/Str 4/0-6 Vessel: 6/8/10/12/14/16/18 Body Hits
Size 3/Str 6/0-6 Vessel: 8/11/14/17/20/23/26 Body Hits
Size 4/Str 8/0-6 Vessel: 10/14/18/22/26/30/34 Body Hits
Size 5/Str 10/0-6 Vessel: 12/17/22/27/32/37/42 Body Hits
Size 6/Str 20/0-6 Vessel: 22/28/34/40/46/52/58 Body Hits
Size 7/Str 30/0-6 Vessel: 32/39/46/53/60/67/74 Body Hits

So a mouse would have 4 Body Hits, a cat would have 6, a dog would have 8, a big dog would have 10, a human would have 12, a horse would have 22, and an elephant would have 32. That seems more reasonable, right?

One final calculation: what would a starting celestial look like in different-sized Vessels?

Str + CF + Vessel×Size
Size 1/Str 4/0-6 Vessel: 7/8/9/10/11/12/13 Body Hits
Size 2/Str 6/0-6 Vessel: 9/11/13/15/17/19/21 Body Hits
Size 3/Str 8/0-6 Vessel: 11/14/17/20/23/26/29 Body Hits
Size 4/Str 10/0-6 Vessel: 13/17/21/25/29/33/37 Body Hits
Size 5/Str 12/0-6 Vessel: 15/20/25/30/35/40/45 Body Hits
Size 6/Str 24/0-6 Vessel: 27/33/39/45/51/57/63 Body Hits
Size 7/Str 36/0-6 Vessel: 39/46/53/60/67/74/81 Body Hits

Are these reasonable Body Hits for celestial vessels?

Note that under this system, the Size of a Vessel becomes very significant – enough so that you might want to reconsider the pricing scheme for Vessels to account for Level and Size rather than Level and Charisma. OTOH, we don't want to inflate the cost of a human-sized vessel. So how about this: apply the Str modifier to the cost of the Vessel: that is, up to an 8-point discount for mouse vessels, and double or triple the cost for horses and elephants. OTOH, this makes small Vessels perhaps a bit too cheap.

Size  Str  Sample
  1   -8   Mouse
  2   -6   Cat, Small Dog
  3   -4   Medium Dog
  4   -2   Large Dog
  5   ×1   Human
  6   ×2   Horse, Bear
  7   ×3   Elephant

So what happens when a bodiless Celestial possesses a host? First, he must have sufficient Forces to possess the host's Size: use the more severe of this or the "must dedicate as many Forces to possession as the host has" requirement. Second, his effective Str when acting through that host is adjusted by the host's Str modifier (to a minimum of 0; but that's only a problem for the very weakest celestials attempting to possess the very smallest hosts), as determined by this Size chart. Third, he uses the host's Body Hits as is: he does not recalculate them based on his Str. I think that a Kyrio should be able to manage that without much trouble.