Navigation, maps and TL

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I have gone for walks through woods where I have never been before ad I have always known where I started from. I do not need a map to keep things straight.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yeah, my map reading skills are terrible (unless I make it) and my direction giving is questionable (at best). They've improved over the years, but I remember telling someone how to get to my house by "Following the old, wet red shirt in the road and turn at the corner with the downed oak." That still gets brought up occasionally and we all have a good laugh. But I don't get lost. Pretty much ever - but my spatial memory is ridiculously accurate. I used to pack a 3 or 4 day bag and intentionally get "lost" in various locales so I could find my way out later. Of course, I do use a compass to double-check myself and a map (to also compare with my gut) - but you're a idiot if you don't do that in this day and age. Exposure can kill ya fast as anything else.

I don't think that kind of orienteering is Navigation in GURPS. That's Area Knowledge or probably Survival for wholly unfamiliar territory.

Could you do a military style Land Navigation course in which you had to find a series of randomized posts from just their coordinates without a map? That would be Navigation in GURPS.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by whswhs

But I was thinking of "where is Oporto and what course do I set to get there?"

Yes and Navigation (Land) is "where is 63415472, 63375395, and 64105405 and how to do I negotiate the terrain to hit them in order and return here as fast as possible?".

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'll grant that if you're trying to find your way to a specific location in an area you're familiar with. "Okay, it looks like the vacuum cleaner repair place is three blocks west of this branch of my bank." But I was thinking of "where is Oporto and what course do I set to get there?"

Ah-ha! Then yeah, that's probably Navigation. Of course...in a city you could use Urban Survival for finding your way around.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't think that kind of orienteering is Navigation in GURPS. That's Area Knowledge or probably Survival for wholly unfamiliar territory.

Could you do a military style Land Navigation course in which you had to find a series of randomized posts from just their coordinates without a map? That would be Navigation in GURPS.

Actually, I more or less have to use GPS coordinates when I use maps or a Betty to get around (or topographical ones if I'm in a rural/wilderness area). Something about the numbers helps me focus. If it's a area I'm familiar with I can use street maps, but I'm better at just visualizing the route I need to go and using landmarks. And do note, I didn't disagree that it wasn't Navigation, not Area Knowledge - just that maps should also be allowed to be used with Area Knowledge.

I think in general you could say that Navigation can get you anywhere on the map, Area Knowledge lets you get around the location(s) it covers, and Urban Survival can function as Navigation in cities or other urban environments.

[shawnhcorey]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Could you do a military style Land Navigation course in which you had to find a series of randomized posts from just their coordinates without a map? That would be Navigation in GURPS.

Why would military posts be situated in random places? Most are set up to guard something, which makes them easier to find.

The modern military relies on coordinated efforts, which require maps. But for game play, a party need not have any special abilities more than those most people already have.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

Why would military posts be situated in random places? Most are set up to guard something, which makes them easier to find.

By "posts", I meant the literal poles that the boxes in a land-nav training course are set on. They are posts (you know, like some Lance Coporals and PFCs with a post-hole digger in 19__ probably put them there) in the middle of the wilderness and a box with a dog tag with a random string of digits on it. You have to find the box and do a rubbing of the dog tag, to complete the course. You are given a list of randomized boxes (there are more boxes in the course than any one student gets) and you have to find your boxes and return to the start. You have a certain amount of time, and like everything in military training in the US it is a race, the first people to return get extra points, and also the rest of the time off. You have a map, a protractor, a pencil and a compass (and certainly no DAGR or other GPS device).

Could you do that without a map? Because that is Navigation (Land).

The modern military relies on coordinated efforts, which require maps. But for game play, a party need not have any special abilities more than those most people already have.

Most people don't have any training in Navigation.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes and Navigation (Land) is "where is 63415472, 63375395, and 64105405 and how to do I negotiate the terrain to hit them in order and return here as fast as possible?".

I was thinking something closer to this:

...................................
.   A                             .
.                                 .
.                                 .
.B                                .
.                D                .
.      C                          .
.                                 .
.                                 .
...................................

Assuming that the width and height of a symbol represent one klick, A is the tribe's new big camp, and an adventurer for some reason went to B, then to C, then to D, and now wants to find the most reasonable straight path back to A from D.
I thought that's Navigation, and a task within reasonable difficultiy levels for an experienced outdoorsy character.
Do you (all) consider this a case of Navigation (assuming nobody had the time to learn Area Knowledge of the region yet)?
Does this indeed look like a reasonably doable task with no tools? With no tools except a compass?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I thought that's Navigation, and a task within reasonable difficultiy levels for an experienced outdoorsy character.

Not if there's no trail, no line of sight and no landmarks it isn't. It's nearly impossible without a map.

Do you (all) consider this a case of Navigation (assuming nobody had the time to learn Area Knowledge of the region yet)?

To plot the most efficient traversable course through unknown terrain between two points without any visible trail, or landmarks? Yes.

Does this indeed look like a reasonably doable task with no tools? With no tools except a compass?

No, it's practically impossible by dead-reckoning alone. What is possible is heading towards a landmark, or back-tracking or a combination of these things. I learned how to do that kind of orienteering in survival courses though, not navigation.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Not if there's no trail, no line of sight and no landmarks it isn't. It's nearly impossible without a map.

To plot the most efficient traversable course through unknown terrain between two points without any visible trail, or landmarks? Yes.

No, it's practically impossible by dead-reckoning alone. What is possible is heading towards a landmark, or back-tracking or a combination of these things. I learned how to do that kind of orienteering in survival courses though, not navigation.

Ookay. Orienteering sounds like a 3e word, actually. And apparently 4-e-GURPSese translation of that is Navigation (Land). (Update says to replace the Orienteering skill with Navigation (Land).)

Hmm. Are there ways to estimate the distance walked in any direction with reasonable accuracy, so that one could at least head out in the right direction to return if one had a compass? (Actually, I'm mostly looking for benchmark modifiers etc.)

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm. Are there ways to estimate the distance walked in any direction with reasonable accuracy, so that one could at least head out in the right direction to return if one had a compass? (Actually, I'm mostly looking for benchmark modifiers etc.)

Pacing and travel knots come to mind. - my troop leader was a SF and he had some peculiar ideas about what his scouts should know...

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Ookay. Orienteering sounds like a 3e word, actually. .

No, it's a real English word.

And apparently 4-e-GURPSese translation of that is Navigation (Land) (Update says to replace the Orienteering skill with Navigation (Land).)

David Morgan-Mar is an engineer and a cartoonist, I don't think he was ever a commando or explorer.

Hmm. Are there ways to estimate the distance walked in any direction with reasonable accuracy, so that one could at least head out in the right direction to return if one had a compass? (Actually, I'm mostly looking for benchmark modifiers etc.)

Yes, that's why you do a pace count (and that probably is part of both Navigation (Land) and Survival). A pace count and a compass alone aren't going to give you the most efficient traversable course from D to A though. It's not just the hypotenuse of a ideal right triangle if there's any kind of terrain (and if there's not any kind of terrain why can't you just see A from D?).