superior write ups

[milliken]

Originally Posted by ScaredofScissors

Just like most of the Superiors in the Superiors books, it's not really "new" material so much as "now with extra expansion" material. This isn't a complaint, BTW, so much as a question of where's the love for Jean, or Marc, or Jordi, or Janus?

I think there are several reasons -- one is that it *did* have a good chunk of the necessary work done already, so it was easier. Another is author availability -- Elizabeth did the initial expansion, and so it was easy for the Line Editor to talk her into doing the full Superiors version....

Also the original Superior books were done partly by the (semi-)natural groupings that fell out, and also partly driven by author availability/interest. Since a moderate number of AAs and DPs had expanded writeups by then, there was a fair amount of repeat. I don't think there was any deliberate intent to repeat or not repeat Superiors who'd already had some expansion. And there *was* some intent to adjust certain Superiors who seemed to have generated issues among the players -- Dominic being the main one who comes to mind.

As for the remaining Archangels (and Demon Princes, to give them equal time), again, I think it's partly a matter of who's been available to write them, and also what people wanted to write.

There's also, unfortunately, the issue of what will sell best, since that will help keep the line moving along, at some rate. I doubt Jordi will be a big seller, though I could be wrong. I also suspect Marc will be toward the lower end of the popularity curve, judging by what Superior's I've seen GMs and players gravitate to. Jean, Janus, and Eli ought to do fairly well, though.

---Walter

[Archangel Beth]

Well, if it had been up to me, it'd be, oh, Eli who showed up first.

But it wasn't up to me.

The Lilith document has been in the queue for quite some time. (Longer than the Liber Umbrarum, actually; she was passed over in favor of new content.) She got there because, yes, she was very easy to acquire and the author (*cough*) was quite cheerful in the type of contract she wanted.


The Superiors 1 book worked out to be the "War and Honor" lot in part because I did Dominic as a "worked example" of what I thought a Superior expansion should and could be. Using "half-done" Superiors helped the book go faster, as well, and ironed out some of the wrinkles.

Superiors 2, Pleasures of the Flesh, featured only one "revisit" (Kobal); the material on Andre, Haagenti, and Nybbas was all-new.

Superiors 3, Hope and Prophecy, was mostly a function of "we know what groupings we want; who do we have authors for?" So, Yves, Gabriel, and Blandine (half-dones), plus Khalid, who needed a lot of work to make him more sane.

Superiors 4, Rogues to Riches, was the same as S3 -- who do we have authors for? Who can we get authors for quickly? And it was all-new expansions, as I recall. Alaemon, Fleurity, Mammon, Valefor, and Vapula.

About the only constant there was alternating Archangel Book/Prince Book; after S1, we really weren't trying to repeat material.


I note that there is a lot of new material in the Lilith file. (Also, due to playtester feedback, there is a chunk of the Geas material from FotM. The (short!) Bright chapter is also in response to playtester feedback; my initial retort was, "Didn't we already cover this, in exhaustive detail, in the IPG?" Turned out, no, not really from the angle they were suggesting. But it was not my fault.)



More answering-everything... The Feast of Blades on e23 has the revised Litheroy mechanics! (Also GURPS stats for things, but I don't know if it's a selling point or not.) *grin*

[PK]

Originally Posted by milliken

That, unfortunately, was the theory behind the Revelations Cycle books. Bad theory, no donut.

No, good theory, bad execution. The Revelations Cycle was hardly one huge, linked campaign/adventure. Only the last two books had anything to do with each other --- the first three were about as independent as you can get. And the "twist" of the big finale had plot holes in it the size of one of Baal's combat vessels. And the last book basically suggested resolving everything by having people act out a railroaded scene instead of doing anything that could have any effect on the final result.

Let's amend that theory to, "People might be interested in a linked set of books that presented a well done campaign, in the form of a linked set of adventures that ended up exploring some of the secrets or interesting aspects of the setting." That would be something that we have yet to see from In Nomine.

You know that I'm a huge fan of the game. But I've got to speak plainly, here -- the quality of the In Nomine line varied wildly, from the horrid organization of the core rules, the damnable APG/IPG, and the poorly executed Revelations Cycle, to the amazingly useful You Are Here, the solid GMG, most of the Superiors splatbooks (which I'm glad to see are getting e23'd), the Liber books, and the simply f'ing brilliant EPG. And even the worst of the books had some great, useful, well-done stuff, but the average gamer is going to give up on a line if they feel like they're panning for gold from a supplement's contents.

Hopefully there are enough fans here to keep the system in virtual print, especially considering that the line had been getting progressively better and better as time went on... it's a shame that by the time everyone had learned from their mistakes and knew how to turn out great products, the line had already dwindled. Sigh.

[PK]

Beth, once upon a time, Rebecca Borgstrom had done an amazing writeup for Jordi. Any thought on getting her to expand it a little? It was the only thing I'd ever read that really captured Jordi, for me, and offered real motivation for an otherwise incomprehensible Archangel.

[Archangel Beth]

When I get a go-ahead for Jordi, I want Rebecca Borgstrom to do it for me, yes. (And when will I get that go-ahead? That depends, mightily, on how well Superior expansions do on e23.)

A minor clearing up: until the Superior books sell out in dead-trees version, the Superiors in them won't show up on e23, far as I know. Future Superiors -- depending on sales, of course -- will.

[milliken]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

No, good theory, bad execution. The Revelations Cycle was hardly one huge, linked campaign/adventure.

Agreed, nor do I disagree with your other comments. But I think the original concept of the Revelations Cycle, which included much more than just the adventure component, but rules expansions and other semi-essential rules and background material, intermixed with adventure material and spread through five books, was indeed fatally flawed.

As for a five-book adventure cycle, all I can say is that the going wisdom is that adventures sell poorly, and I think all the data available reinforces that. A lot of people don't want to spend money on stuff that has effectively one use; also, technically, only GMs should be buying adventures, greatly reducing the potential sales.

So from both a business and an organizational point of view, the Rev Cycle was a bad idea, in my opinion -- basically (my interpretation -- I had no inside knowledge at the time) it was an attempt to make adventures sell better by admixing them with essential stuff people really *needed* to buy.

---Walter

[jramsay]

Originally Posted by milliken

There's also, unfortunately, the issue of what will sell best, since that will help keep the line moving along, at some rate. I doubt Jordi will be a big seller, though I could be wrong. I also suspect Marc will be toward the lower end of the popularity curve, judging by what Superior's I've seen GMs and players gravitate to. Jean, Janus, and Eli ought to do fairly well, though.

---Walter

From a point of view of usefulness (utility?) I'd think it'd be more useful to focus in on the less popular superiors, since players could probably use some help in defining them and are less likely to have them mapped out. And all the various NPCs and bits and pieces are easier to drag in whole cloth.

I guess it depends on whether you think people are buying them from a fannish pov because they want to read more about their favourite superior or not. I really don't know.

[Archangel Beth]

I suspect that the favorites are more likely to sell better; the EPG is vastly useful, for instance, but I don't think it's been a breakaway best seller. (Even though it probably deserves to be.) Likewise, the Umbrarum, despite being non-adventure new material which I think fills a nice little niche, isn't on the top ten list today.

I've a feeling that many people simply don't use the ill-defined minor Superiors, and minimize the less-popular major ones -- whether or not there's an expanded writeup.

It would be bemusing to be proven inaccurate on this.

[alexondria]

I use the minor and major superiors in my game and let the players choose any they want to serve on which ever side I'm running for, but I just make up answers if I don't have them, but it is fun to look at the canon answer after I've made up how it works in my game and see how close I got or if I like their answer better sometimes I'll even change what I've made up if the PC's haven't found out yet.

[thalcos]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

More answering-everything... The Feast of Blades on e23 has the revised Litheroy mechanics! (Also GURPS stats for things, but I don't know if it's a selling point or not.) *grin*

Revised Litheroy mechanics? How are those different from the ones printed in the original Feast of Blades?