Enhanced Defenses vs. Combat Reflexes

[Digganob]

The fact that you can dodge as many times as you are attacked per turn (even if you get shot at by 200 archers, you can try to dodge every one), even if you already tried to parry or block, and failed . . . and the fact that enh dodge can be bought more than once, more than justifies it's cost . . . IMO.

If it was only say 5 points, I could take 8 levels of enh. dodge for 40 points . . . and with average 10s in stats, I now have a 16 dodge. Fights could drag on for a while.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by deciusmus

Am I missing something, or is Enhanced Dodge not worth buying? Combat Reflexes gives Enhanced Dodge, plus a lot more, for the same cost.

It's probably not worth buying unless you already have Combat Reflexes and the maximum number of levels of increased Basic Speed the GM will allow you.

Is there some justification for the costs of Enhanced Defenses I'm not seeing?

Probably not. Enhanced Dodge at +15 per +1 is far too much, since you can get increased Basic Speed +1 for +20, and decreased move -1 for -5, for a net of +15, and get all the benefits of Enhanced Dodge plus better sequencing, and better Air Move if you Air Move at all.

I guess the first +1 to active defenses is a lot less unbalancing than additional bonuses. Still, I'm trying to make a character who is real good at dodging, but explicitly doesn't have Combat Reflexes, and it seems a bit unfair to pay 15 points for +1 to Dodge, when I could be paying 15 points for +1 to dodge, parry, and block. Any thoughts?

Thoughts:

As written, if you are allowed to take Enhanced Parry (all weapons) it is probably a good deal, Enhanced Block and Enhanced Parry for a single skill may be worthwhile for some concepts, though for 3 points more you get 2 points of skill, giving you the same benefit to defense and quite a benefit to offense, as well. And Enhanced Dodge is just way too expensive, in any case.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Eljay451

High dodge is a huge advantage, in a combat-centric campaign.

Presumably, the character would already have Combat Reflexes.

You can't buy six levels of Combat Reflexes, whereas you may be allowed (with GM approval!) to buy six levels of Enhanced Dodge, on top of Combat Reflexes.

Yeah, but Basic Speed +6 and Move -6 is the same price and better.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by deciusmus

So, do you think a limitation to Enhanced Dodge: Cannot Buy Combat Reflexes -40% would be fair? (making Enhanced Dodge cost only 9 points)?

Better just to make Enhanced Dodge like 8-10 points and be done with it. There is no reason to get Enahnced Dodge at 15 points.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Combat Reflexes is considered realistic; anyone can have it and get +1 to all defenses.

Increased Basic Speed (up to +2) and decreased Move are both apparently realistic, and combined are the same price and more benefit than Enhanced Dodge.

I think the temptation to overprice Enhanced Dodge comes from the fact that GURPS combat system is too generous with Dodges. Multiple Dodges probably should have a penalty similar to multiple Parries.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Increased Basic Speed (up to +2) and decreased Move are both apparently realistic, and combined are the same price and more benefit than Enhanced Dodge.

Sure -- but what do you do once you hit the "realistic" limit? I'm not saying that Enhanced Dodge is "fair" for everyone out of the gate . . . but it isn't intended to be. It exists to let characters optimized for dodging eke out an extra +1 to +3 Dodge after buying all the Basic Speed, Combat Reflexes, etc. that the GM will allow. Tweakers who wish to crank up the game's most useful defense beyond levels that would be realistic for a normal human must pay a premium.

Lots of things in GURPS are deliberately priced to be a bad deal for ordinary PCs. Solution? Don't buy 'em for ordinary PCs; buy whatever you think is the better deal. The idea is that the price controls specialized PCs built around abusing one particular rule, because it's high and only comes up for PCs who've exhausted the usual options in their quest for More.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sure -- but what do you do once you hit the "realistic" limit? I'm not saying that Enhanced Dodge is "fair" for everyone out of the gate . . . but it isn't intended to be. It exists to let characters optimized for dodging eke out an extra +1 to +3 Dodge after buying all the Basic Speed, Combat Reflexes, etc. that the GM will allow. Tweakers who wish to crank up the game's most useful defense beyond levels that would be realistic for a normal human must pay a premium.

Lots of things in GURPS are deliberately priced to be a bad deal for ordinary PCs. Solution? Don't buy 'em for ordinary PCs; buy whatever you think is the better deal. The idea is that the price controls specialized PCs built around abusing one particular rule, because it's high and only comes up for PCs who've exhausted the usual options in their quest for More.

Ok, Kromm, I understand the argument. However I thought (IIRC you said
the thing) in G4, unlike G3, you are going to pay what you get.

"it costs what it costs"

The meaning was that traits have been priced according to game effects
rather than rarity and/or unusuality. In 3e instead a lot of traits had unusual
background built-in, and attributes too had non-flat cost such to enforce
a diminishing return policy.

I like the new concept, to shift frequency control in the hand of GM, because
it depends sooooooo strongly upon campaign setting and power level.

Following this HERO-esque philosophy combat reflexes, enhanced dodge,
buy_speed_drop_move, ambidexterity, off-hand-training, etc
should have been priced according to game effects, clearly labelling what's
ordinary (or mundane, or realistic) and what's not (i.e. cinematic, supernatural...).

Now I see G4 as a BIG improvement in this respect, but I feel something
was lost for legacy support (sacred cows), historical reason (magery should
have been 15/lvl) or design consideration.

Maybe I'm wrong ;)

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sure -- but what do you do once you hit the "realistic" limit?

Well, Enhanced Dodge is a cinematic advantage that requires an "enabling" advantage TBaM or WM. The simplest solution would seem to be to waive the "realistic" limit in a cinematic campaign, either entirely or when characters have an appropriate "enabling" advantage like TBaM or WM.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Luther

Ok, Kromm, I understand the argument. However I thought (IIRC you said
the thing) in G4, unlike G3, you are going to pay what you get.

"it costs what it costs"

The meaning was that traits have been priced according to game effects
rather than rarity and/or unusuality. In 3e instead a lot of traits had unusual
background built-in, and attributes too had non-flat cost such to enforce
a diminishing return policy.

But that's exactly what Enhanced Defenses have, as well, though with much less of a curve.

DEFINE "Enhanced Defenses" -= "+1 to Dodge, Parry, Block"

Enhanced Defenses costs 15 points for the first level (Combat Reflexes) and 30 points for each additional level (Enhanced Dodge/Parry/Block). Levels past the first may be broken up into individual bonuses to reduce cost.

When Kromm put it that way, it made more sense, IMO.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

But that's exactly what Enhanced Defenses have, as well, though with much less of a curve.

DEFINE "Enhanced Defenses" -= "+1 to Dodge, Parry, Block"

Enhanced Defenses costs 15 points for the first level (Combat Reflexes) and 30 points for each additional level (Enhanced Dodge/Parry/Block). Levels past the first may be broken up into individual bonuses to reduce cost.

When Kromm put it that way, it made more sense, IMO.

And that's exactly against "it costs what it costs", or flat costs, philosophy.