Parrying for others...

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Sac Parry is a one point perk. Which would seem to imply that it reduces a one point penalty to zero.

-4 is consistent with attacking someones weapon (B400), but taking a perk to offset this penalty totaly seems VERY cheap.

No you're looking it the wrong way, take an easy skill, if you try it at default then you at -4, but 1 point in the skill then you ate -0. It simple that you cant improve beyond 1 point. hence it a perk not a skill.

No way would I allow some do this as well as a as a fencsing parry for free hence why -1 and -2 is too cheap.

If they can't soak the penalties of a second parry, no way are the skilled enough to be worrying about defending others without getting themselves killed.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

True, but then how many militaries actually taught groups to defend each other in this manner? The only similar thing I'm familiar with is the phalanx (which requires a Perk to pull off properly in GURPS).

I hear the Roman Legions were well thought of as a military force. (Aside, a lot of line infantry focuses on blocks for everything but high head attacks.)

The "instinctive" ally parry for close order inf is an attack through the ally's left front hex - he doesn't guard that spot himself because his weapon is in his right hand and his stance is not conductive to crossing it over - doing so would mess with the formation.

As a perk/quirk, the big weakness of the style when unsupported is not defending from that side, so "I thought you had that" is probably the right way to do it.

In practice, whatever is chosen should disadvantage soldiers used to formation fighting in duels, but make them deadly in groups. A soldier might be disadvantaged in a duel with a duelist, but a formation of duelists should be slaughtered by a similarly sized group of competent soldiers.

One GURPS issue with this is it's tricky to pack people tighter than one per hex. This makes sense for dueling styles, but close infantry will be packed tighter.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

No penalty. That's the point - it's basically a metatrait consisting of the Sacrificial Parry Perk and a related Quirk. Personally, I'd rather not have this count against the Perk/Quirk limit, so I just consider it a Feature.

Sorry, I mean't if you don't have one of these.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by martinl

I hear the Roman Legions were well thought of as a military force. (Aside, a lot of line infantry focuses on blocks for everything but high head attacks.)

Did the Legions actually parry for one another? I know they used a shield wall (phalanx), but I've never really heard of an emphasis on using the gladius to defend an ally - to the best of my knowledge, it was used in a purely offensive role (with the Legions relying entirely on their shields for defense). Using it against high-angle attacks makes a good deal of sense, but I'd expect that to be every man for himself.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Sorry, I mean't if you don't have one of these.

There have been a lot of comments in this thread as to what it should be. So far, I think I like your -1/-2/-4 best. I also like the idea of imposing an additional penalty for switching focus (from defending yourself to defending someone else), but I think the penalties for multiple parries probably are steep enough as it is.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Did the Legions actually parry for one another? I know they used a shield wall (phalanx), but I've never really heard of an emphasis on using the gladius to defend an ally - to the best of my knowledge, it was used in a purely offensive role (with the Legions relying entirely on their shields for defense). Using it against high-angle attacks makes a good deal of sense, but I'd expect that to be every man for himself.

On reflection, they probably didn't - the gladius was used for low thrusts, and high parrys would take it way out of line. They must have relied on armor and shieldwork.

My bad on this one.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by martinl

On reflection, they probably didn't - the gladius was used for low thrusts, and high parrys would take it way out of line. They must have relied on armor and shieldwork.

My bad on this one.

Come to think of it, I think Sacrificial Parry may be an artifact of mock combat. Most militaries prior to firearms (and for some portions of the firearms "age") focused on large formations. A phalanx works well for a large formation, because you don't have to move the shield much to make it work. I suspect, however, that if a formation involves more than 3 or so people you will have a lot of instances of Sacrificial Parries ending up interfering with your own side.

In mock combat, very small groups aren't that uncommon. With a two-man group, Sacrificial Parry could be very effective indeed.

In a setting where duels (quels?) were settled by two pairs going at it, I could see Sacrificial Parry being a common tactic. I'd probably give such duelists (quelists?) one of the Feature versions, however. Probably "I thought you had that," although "I was trying to help" would be a good fit as well.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

Come to think of it, I think Sacrificial Parry may be an artifact of mock combat. Most militaries prior to firearms (and for some portions of the firearms "age") focused on large formations. A phalanx works well for a large formation, because you don't have to move the shield much to make it work. I suspect, however, that if a formation involves more than 3 or so people you will have a lot of instances of Sacrificial Parries ending up interfering with your own side.

The mock combat may be a problem, but I'm not sure about the rest. In formation fighting, you can't really "cross over" your shield or weapon to the off side without wrecking the formation, mock combat or real. So you do shield stuff for your left and your buddy's right, and weapon stuff for your right and your other buddy's left. Both you and your buddies are trained to expect this.

This is based on mock combats with trained formations of up to ~20 people.

[sir_pudding]

Formation Fighters will have Teamwork not Sacrificial Parry.