Innate Attack: Wall as an active defense?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

So you require the Reflexive not because that's required to generally use an Innate Attack to make a Power defense (because that's not necessary), but only when you have the Persistent and Wall enhancements?

Is there a reference for this, or is this people's gut-instinct here? When you add persistent to an Innate Attack, does it say anywhere that you can't use it as a power defense without Reflexive?

Gut instinct. I was imagining casting the wall on somebody else's turn. As in, someone shoots, I defend by placing the wall between us, and now not only was his shot stopped by my wall, but he can't even run up to punch me either (until the wall is brought down).

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Gut instinct. I was imagining casting the wall on somebody else's turn. As in, someone shoots, I defend by placing the wall between us, and now not only was his shot stopped by my wall, but he can't even run up to punch me either (until the wall is brought down).

And conversely, unless you have Selectivity in addition to Persistent and Wall, the wall will be there until it's brought down on any use of the ability.

Although honestly, I might be inclined to let it be used for Power Parry or Block anyway, at least for Rigid rather than damaging walls; if your defense roll fails, that attack got through before your Wall went up, and so did any others where your defense roll failed, but then your Wall is up and an obstacle on the battlemap like any other use of it. After all, you could get much the same effect had you chosen Wait (create Wall if anybody attacks from this direction) on your turn, and you did pay a pretty steep premium for the Persistent, Wall, and Area enhancements.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Gut instinct. I was imagining casting the wall on somebody else's turn. As in, someone shoots, I defend by placing the wall between us, and now not only was his shot stopped by my wall, but he can't even run up to punch me either (until the wall is brought down).

I dunno. Nothing stops you from shooting a fireball on someone else's turn to stop their ice ball (power parry), so I'm not sure why it suddenly wouldn't work when someone paid more points to make it persistent and turn it into a wall of fire. Moreover, if you look at Power Dodge, it states that any physical changes that a Power Dodge makes remain until you choose to turn them off (which must be on your turn). So if I use Power Dodge to turn insubstantial for your attack, I'm still insubstantial for Bob's attack and Jane's attack, until it's my turn and I deactivate it. I don't see why a Wall would be treated any differently.

Power defenses are an optional rule and wouldn't be applicable in every setting, but in the sort of settings where they would be permissible (like, say, a Supers setting), I doubt it would be any more overpowering than the Power Dodge options above. Plus, you know, throwing up a LINGERING wall of fire out of desperation has its disadvantages too

(Note that the power-defense rules say that you can only use one of them once per turn, so you're not going to be putting up more than one "free" wall per turn)

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I dunno. Nothing stops you from shooting a fireball on someone else's turn to stop their ice ball (power parry), so I'm not sure why it suddenly wouldn't work when someone paid more points to make it persistent and turn it into a wall of fire. Moreover, if you look at Power Dodge, it states that any physical changes that a Power Dodge makes remain until you choose to turn them off (which must be on your turn). So if I use Power Dodge to turn insubstantial for your attack, I'm still insubstantial for Bob's attack and Jane's attack, until it's my turn and I deactivate it. I don't see why a Wall would be treated any differently.

Power defenses are an optional rule and wouldn't be applicable in every setting, but in the sort of settings where they would be permissible (like, say, a Supers setting), I doubt it would be any more overpowering than the Power Dodge options above. Plus, you know, throwing up a LINGERING wall of fire out of desperation has its disadvantages too

(Note that the power-defense rules say that you can only use one of them once per turn, so you're not going to be putting up more than one "free" wall per turn)

The main concern would be actually using it as an attack rather than a defense. That would be covered mainly by only allowing it for the Rigid option, since that's the one that stops attacks coming through to damage you... but even Rigid Walls can do collision damage up to what it takes to break through them, so it could get abusive if there are a lot of attackers in the habit of using Slam.

Then again, those attackers are hurling themselves literally headlong into danger, and if they don't have enough DR to soak up to twice basic collision damage, it could be argued both that they would have suffered some from successfully hitting you and that it's their own darn fault....

[Raekai]

I'm really excited that this has gained a lot of traction!

To explain this ideal power more so:
I'm constructing a shield out of magical light. It's physical. A barrier. And it would be able to dissipate the moment I was done. I just want to be able to use it as a defense. The problem with it being a Power Parry is that I'm not just trying to blow powers.

Uses:
John slashes at me with his greatsword. Nope, light shield. Glad I made that roll.
Jim shoots an arrow at me. Nope, light shield. Man, I'm getting good rolls!
Jerry shoots one shot out of a revolver at me. Nope, light shield. But it cracked that time. Took a lot of damage.
Oh no... Does Josh have an uzi? Well, that would do too much damage and destroy my wall of light.

Do you see what I mean?
The best option I'm seeing so far is the Reflexive Enhancement. That will work, won't it?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Raekai

Uses:
John slashes at me with his greatsword. Nope, light shield. Glad I made that roll.
Jim shoots an arrow at me. Nope, light shield. Man, I'm getting good rolls!
Jerry shoots one shot out of a revolver at me. Nope, light shield. But it cracked that time. Took a lot of damage.
Oh no... Does Josh have an uzi? Well, that would do too much damage and destroy my wall of light.

Your describing DR as a wall really. Take Active Defense on it or requires an attribute roll.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Thing is, if you create a wall at all, the wall is standing there, per the Wall enhancement. Ergo, I wouldn't allow a Power Parry against one attack without Reflexive, because that would imply a wall that blinks in and out of existence in a split second when that's not the character's ability.

That can be a real problem with trying to use Walls as a defense. It might be better to just buy some DR with the Active Defense limitation (and maybe Directional as well) and call it an "instant wall" as a special effect.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

That can be a real problem with trying to use Walls as a defense. It might be better to just buy some DR with the Active Defense limitation (and maybe Directional as well) and call it an "instant wall" as a special effect.

I've come around to thinking it's okay to plant a Wall as a Power Parry and have it stick around, in the same way that it's okay to go Insubstantial as a Power Dodge and remain Insubstantial thereafter.

[munin]

If you allow persistent effects from a power parry, how do you decide where the persistent effects occur? Does the defender have some control over how close to them or their foe the persistent effects occur, or is it random (or just halfway)?

As a (cinematic) real-world analogy, imagine using the Area Defense perk (Gun Fu, p. 17) to shoot down an incoming missile with a grenade launcher. Whether or not you succeed, where does the grenade explode?

I think the simplest answer would be that you just attempt a power parry and your margin of success determines how far away from you the power parry occurs (the better your skill, the more quickly/further away you can intercept attacks).

The GM might allow players to try to choose where the power parry occurs. When you make a power parry with a persistent innate attack, decide how far away from you you want the power parry to occur and apply normal ranged penalties to your power parry. Thus if you attempt your power parry close to you (within 2 yards) there will be no penalty (but your attack's persistent effects will occur close to you), but attempting a distant power parry will be more difficult. If your penalized power parry succeeds the persistent effects occur where you wanted.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by munin

If you allow persistent effects from a power parry, how do you decide where the persistent effects occur? Does the defender have some control over how close to them or their foe the persistent effects occur, or is it random (or just halfway)?

As a (cinematic) real-world analogy, imagine using the Area Defense perk (Gun Fu, p. 17) to shoot down an incoming missile with a grenade launcher. Whether or not you succeed, where does the grenade explode?

I think the simplest answer would be that you just attempt a power parry and your margin of success determines how far away from you the power parry occurs (the better your skill, the more quickly/further away you can intercept attacks).

The GM might allow players to try to choose where the power parry occurs. When you make a power parry with a persistent innate attack, decide how far away from you you want the power parry to occur and apply normal ranged penalties to your power parry. Thus if you attempt your power parry close to you (within 2 yards) there will be no penalty (but your attack's persistent effects will occur close to you), but attempting a distant power parry will be more difficult. If your penalized power parry succeeds the persistent effects occur where you wanted.

This would disallow using Wall for a power defense even if you had Reflexive on it, you realize. I don't think it's really that difficult - you put the Wall down someplace in range that puts it between you and the attack you're defending against, and doesn't interfere with or damage anybody else.