Polearm charge against a bowman

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Historically getting charged with polearms was the biggest tactical concern of archers. Hence fortifications like castle walls or the stakes driven into the ground at Agincourt.

Being charged by any sort of infantry or cavalry was a problem for archers, polearms are not meaningfully better at it than swords.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

What I meant was in practice some archers will not get their last shot off against lower-DX polearm users, because they'll be taken out before their action.

Now think about that for a second. The lower-DX polearm charger has a - lower DX, as in not high but low. This means his probability of actually hitting your archer (whatever DX the archer is) is also low. He might miss! LOL

When the archer's turn arrives, the polerarm charger is adjacent to him and they are engaged (provided the archer didn't have his back toward the polearm charger). The archer can now get his "last shot".

Melee p.7
(l) ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK. If the figure had a
missile weapon ready before it was engaged, it may get off one last
shot. (This option reflects the fact that you can almost always release
an arrow at a charging enemy.)

The part in bold should be a hint that Steve did, in fact, consider this "polearm charger vs. archer" issue.

House-rule if you want.

[larsdangly]

The combined language of the pole arm charge and 'last shot' rules is ambiguous. Because the 'last shot' rule doesn't really say anything about the last shot going before your DX turn, I would rule the pole arm goes first (i.e., it specifically gets to go out of DX order, whereas the last shot does not).

Another ambiguous case to consider: A (DX 10, with a pole arm) charges B (DX 12, without a pole arm) while C looks on (DX 11, with a missile weapon). C should get to shoot at A before A acts. But A gets to perform the charge attack on B before B can act. Yet B is supposed to act before C. So, do you shuffle A up in the order of actions, to before B (and thus also before C), or do you shuffle B down in the order to after B (and thus also after C)?

[platimus]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The combined language of the pole arm charge and 'last shot' rules is ambiguous. Because the 'last shot' rule doesn't really say anything about the last shot going before your DX turn, I would rule the pole arm goes first (i.e., it specifically gets to go out of DX order, whereas the last shot does not).

I agree with your interpretation but I see nothing ambiguous about the rules. The "last shot" comes with your normal DX-based turn (which is AFTER the polearm charges).

Another ambiguous case to consider: A (DX 10, with a pole arm) charges B (DX 12, without a pole arm) while C looks on (DX 11, with a missile weapon). C should get to shoot at A before A acts. But A gets to perform the charge attack on B before B can act. Yet B is supposed to act before C. So, do you shuffle A up in the order of actions, to before B (and thus also before C), or do you shuffle B down in the order to after B (and thus also after C)?

I would just do it the way the rules say. B, A, C. (Melee, p.12)

EDIT:
I misread. B is without a polearm. In that case, A, B, C (according to the rules).

[Helborn]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The combined language of the pole arm charge and 'last shot' rules is ambiguous. Because the 'last shot' rule doesn't really say anything about the last shot going before your DX turn, I would rule the pole arm goes first (i.e., it specifically gets to go out of DX order, whereas the last shot does not).

Another ambiguous case to consider: A (DX 10, with a pole arm) charges B (DX 12, without a pole arm) while C looks on (DX 11, with a missile weapon). C should get to shoot at A before A acts. But A gets to perform the charge attack on B before B can act. Yet B is supposed to act before C. So, do you shuffle A up in the order of actions, to before B (and thus also before C), or do you shuffle B down in the order to after B (and thus also after C)?

Because A is charging with a polearm, A gets to go first. B and C act in the second AdjDX sequence, B going first and finally C getting to shoot.

Now change that so that both B and C have a Missile Weapon ready, and add D, with DX 9 and a polearm also charging B. The way the current and new rules are interpreted is that A goes first then D then B then C. This is the literal understanding of the rules a written.

What several of us are proposing is a clarification to reflect the wording of the rules in Melee, pg 7, and ITL, pg 104, of "You can almost always release an arrow at a charging enemy." (emphasis mine) to make that ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK option (j or l) take place during the Pole Weapon Charge sequence rather than the normal sequence of attacks. So that, in the example, the order would be B, A, D, C.

Note that if there is no polearm charge, there is no alteration of sequence and all combatants act in strict order of AdjDX. Remove the polearms from A and D and even if they still charge, the sequence of attacks would be B, C, A, D.

Yes, we can always house rule it that way, but I would like to see it made official or be given some clarification of why not.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Helborn

Because A is charging with a polearm, A gets to go first. B and C act in the second AdjDX sequence, B going first and finally C getting to shoot.

Now change that so that both B and C have a Missile Weapon ready, and add D, with DX 9 and a polearm also charging B. The way the current and new rules are interpreted is that A goes first then D then B then C. This is the literal understanding of the rules a written.

What several of us are proposing is a clarification to reflect the wording of the rules in Melee, pg 7, and ITL, pg 104, of "You can almost always release an arrow at a charging enemy." (emphasis mine) to make that ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK option (j or l) take place during the Pole Weapon Charge sequence rather than the normal sequence of attacks. So that, in the example, the order would be B, A, D, C.

Note that if there is no polearm charge, there is no alteration of sequence and all combatants act in strict order of AdjDX. Remove the polearms from A and D and even if they still charge, the sequence of attacks would be B, C, A, D.

Yes, we can always house rule it that way, but I would like to see it made official or be given some clarification of why not.

If you take away the polearm/charging rule and everyone goes in order of DX, you still have the possibility of E(DX12 with a polearm charging at C). You would resolve E's polearm charge before C's turn. On C's turn, he would fire his "last shot". I'm OK with that but is everyone else? The condition that started this thread will still exist.

[Venomous Filigree]

If A (adjDX 10) is charging B (adjDX 11), Archer C (adjDX 12) can shoot at either of them before they get to conduct their attack actions. Give either A or B or polearm and now Archer C can't...

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Venomous Filigree

If A (adjDX 10) is charging B (adjDX 11), Archer C (adjDX 12) can shoot at either of them before they get to conduct their attack actions. Give either A or B or polearm and now Archer C can't...until A or B's turn is over

That is correct. I added the part in bold for clarification. Now, consider these:

(1) If A (DX12; with a sword) is charging Archer C (DX11), C can't shoot A until after A's turn is over.

(2) If A (DX12; with a sword) is charging B (DX11;sword), Archer C (DX10) still can't shoot either of them until their turns are over.

Do you have a problem with either of those?

[fisherro]

Originally Posted by platimus

The sword charger will have to rear-back the sword and then bring it to bear.

I have to quibble with that.

1. Most swords can thrust. (1a. Many polearms can swing.)

2. Until you get to the period of rapiers & sabers, much (I’d argue most) of the time you start with the sword already “chambered” in a rear position. The “rear back” happens long before it would slow you down in this case.

(And, when we get to sabers & rapiers, they tended to be used with fast cuts from the wrist or elbow rather than from the shoulder.)

Although I’m not sure I’ll give much weight to such matters in this particular case. I think ruling that a missile user being charged by a pole weapon user gets their final shot in adjDX order during the pole weapon phase makes sense giving the existing rules. Just because this feels to me more like a “didn’t think of that” than an intentional advantage for pole users.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by fisherro

Although I’m not sure I’ll give much weight to such matters in this particular case. I think ruling that a missile user being charged by a pole weapon user gets their final shot in adjDX order during the pole weapon phase makes sense giving the existing rules. Just because this feels to me more like a “didn’t think of that” than an intentional advantage for pole users.

From Melee p.7

(l) ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK. If the figure had a
missile weapon ready before it was engaged, it may get off one last
shot. (This option reflects the fact that you can almost always release
an arrow at a charging enemy.)

See the part in bold? I don't see how you can think "Steve didn't think of this".

I look forward to seeing how this "special last shot" is worded as the current "last shot" requires that the archer is engaged. The archer isn't engaged until the END of the charge.