Scales of maps and play

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by JLV

Or, since I prefer not to perform geometry functions every turn during a game

I'm confused, why would this be necessary?

I can just go with the existing statements in the rules... ;-)

"And if congress resolves that pi is equal to four, then by jiminy ..."

[JLV]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I'm confused, why would this be necessary?



"And if congress resolves that pi is equal to four, then by jiminy ..."

Or perhaps we can discuss this principle referred to as KISS...

[Rick_Smith]

Hi all,
The Lords of the Underearth (LotU) maps had hexagons which were a Mega-Mega-Mega hex. The turns were 2 minutes long (not going to look it up but I think that is right). On my vinyl hex map, I've drawn Megahexes (Mh) in dotted black, Mega-Mh in red and Mega-Mega-Mh in solid black.

So I could run a combat between two companies of LotU counters on my melee map, which I think is pretty cool.

I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but I found if the TFT hexes were something like 1.28 meters apart from center to center then the LotU hexes were exactly 20 meters across. Also, at 1.28 meters, the hexes were TOO LONG for the approximation of 1 hex = 1 meter if you measured distances along the hex grain, and the hexes were TOO SHORT for the 1 hex = 1 meter, if you measured distances along the alternate hex grain.

So I could say that the hexes were 1.28 if anyone cared a lot, but just use the 1 hex = 1 meter approximation. It was right if you were measuring part way between the hex and alternate hex grain. (Too long one way and too short the other way.) Close enough for me to say 1 hex = 1 meter on average and have an excuse to make it work.

I figured out what the size of the campaign maps had to be to make they Mega-Mega-Mh of the LotU hexes, but I never made maps with nested Mh at that level. The Judges Guild mapping system just worked better, or I would draw maps with no hexes on them and use those for maps of kingdoms and the like.

Anyway, I spent some time playing with hexagon sizes and found a really sweet compromise.

:-D

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi all,
The Lords of the Underearth (LotU) maps had hexagons which were a Mega-Mega-Mega hex. The turns were 2 minutes long (not going to look it up but I think that is right). On my vinyl hex map, I've drawn Megahexes (Mh) in dotted black, Mega-Mh in red and Mega-Mega-Mh in solid black.

So I could run a combat between two companies of LotU counters on my melee map, which I think is pretty cool.

I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but I found if the TFT hexes were something like 1.28 meters apart from center to center then the LotU hexes were exactly 20 meters across. Also, at 1.28 meters, the hexes were TOO LONG for the approximation of 1 hex = 1 meter if you measured distances along the hex grain, and the hexes were TOO SHORT for the 1 hex = 1 meter, if you measured distances along the alternate hex grain.

So I could say that the hexes were 1.28 if anyone cared a lot, but just use the 1 hex = 1 meter approximation. It was right if you were measuring part way between the hex and alternate hex grain. (Too long one way and too short the other way.) Close enough for me to say 1 hex = 1 meter on average and have an excuse to make it work.

I figured out what the size of the campaign maps had to be to make they Mega-Mega-Mh of the LotU hexes, but I never made maps with nested Mh at that level. The Judges Guild mapping system just worked better, or I would draw maps with no hexes on them and use those for maps of kingdoms and the like.

Anyway, I spent some time playing with hexagon sizes and found a really sweet compromise.

:-D

Warm regards, Rick.

Agreed!, and again, exactly what I do. I have for years, and continue to used, the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon System; which uses a standard OD&D/AD&D 1st ed. standard 5 mile hex.

I still like my TFT MegaHexes at the MH tactical-level, and the next 2 levels up (MMH and MMMH); but for me, it is the JGCHS mapping system which has always filled the bill for me when working big.

Glad you brought that out Rick!

Hopefully others TFT'ers will be able to make use of it in their games too.

JK

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Agreed!, and again, exactly what I do. I have for years, and continue to used, the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon System; which uses a standard OD&D/AD&D 1st ed. standard 5 mile hex.

I do that too -- they always did a great job with their campaign hexes when they published individual hexes of the Wilderlands maps (for an excellent example, see the campaign hex in which Tegel Manor appears), and I found both the style and the substance appealing enough to use it as my standard ever since.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

I still like my TFT MegaHexes at the MH tactical-level, and the next 2 levels up (MMH and MMMH); but for me, it is the JGCHS mapping system which has always filled the bill for me when working big.

Totally agreed.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Glad you brought that out Rick!

Also very much agreed -- one of the charms of LotU was that you had a "mines of Moria" kind of place mapped out in a fairly detailed way, at a scale that was easily translatable into regular TFT terms. I sincerely hope that Steve and company use the example to create their own versions of such maps for things like cities and large underground labyrinths as time goes on.

[Skarg]

The TFT campaigns I was in really enjoyed play on higher-scale maps, especially exploring the world maps. We used the 12.5km hex maps as described in In The Labryrinth, and expanded the terrain types and rules a little bit. We made some pretty huge mapped campaign worlds, and discovering what was in them and getting maps was one of our favorite aspects of play. The GM was the only one with the "real" maps, but if you captured a map in the game world, you'd generally get a paper representation of it, which were extremely fun to make and receive, and were full of clues, errors, misinformation, and sometimes damage and fake blood from misadventures.

I'd welcome more developed rules on playing at other scales, but I'm not sure what mirroring the combat system's Initiative, Sequence and Options would help, or whether it wouldn't cause problems. Our assumption, and the one I continue to use when playing or GMing almost any RPG, is that time passes continuously and if action takes place over a large chunk of time, things would be moving simultaneously. At a small scale you break it in to turns to make it manageable, but if you tried to use I-go You-go for a whole hour or day of movement, you could get weird results that would not be consistent with a world where time and space are supposedly behaving normally at smaller scales too. e.g. If you know two groups are spending the night in towns that are one day's travel apart, and they each plan to travel towards each other, if you roll initiative and move one an entire day's travel, it would meet the other group in the town they woke up in... but really they should meet each other along the rode (unless one sleeps in and the other starts marching at night).

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Skarg

...
I'd welcome more developed rules on playing at other scales, ... e.g. If you know two groups are spending the night in towns that are one day's travel apart, and they each plan to travel towards each other, if you roll initiative and move one an entire day's travel, it would meet the other group in the town they woke up in... but really they should meet each other along the rode (unless one sleeps in and the other starts marching at night).

Hi everyone, Skarg.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Are you talking hex and counter war game rules for fighting at higher scales?

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

If you know two groups are spending the night in towns that are one day's travel apart, and they each plan to travel towards each other, if you roll initiative and move one an entire day's travel, it would meet the other group in the town they woke up in... but really they should meet each other along the rode (unless one sleeps in and the other starts marching at night).

Skarg -

100% Agreed!

Time, Distance, Scale, Travel, Relative Location, and Resource Management are all huge with me in my "campaign management methods", so I am totally with you on what you are saying.

As you point out, the benefits of keeping an accurate, time-correct, and systematized management records relates to exactly your point, and just some of those are:

1) When 2 (or more!) separated parties are trying to rendezvous,

OR,

2) When one group is trying (hoping) to avoid another,

OR,

3) When one group is pursuing (hunting) the other.

OR,

4) Where and When a Random Encounter takes place "on the bigger map"

And the big, big, big one for me, using Time Constriction and Relative Distance and Travel Speed to elevate the TENSION in the game and enhance the DRAMA.

The good news for everyone is, most AH wargames had this built into so many of their games to reflect enemy troop movement, and relative location against a time-line, terrain etc.; hence, there are so many options available for co-opting, that a GM has many highly-serviceable methods out there to choose from which can easily be adopted for the level of "book keeping" they wish for their GM Management Style (if even only a general minimum).

You know, you point is really causing me to realize for the first time, just how much - and it is A LOT - of the BIG game we took directly from AH wargames and added into our TFT campaign; as ITL really didn't have the opportunity to define the game with that lens and scope-of-purpose.

Heck, we even integrated (stole) a thing called: The Character Weekly Planning Sheet from a game called, Superhero 2044, by Donal J. Saxman, Gamescience (1977). A VERY handy GM Control Sheet item when working in the BIG SCALE and on the BIG TIME scales; and tracking the location and activities of various separate PC and NPC groups on the big map.

That being said, I am with you, and I would love to see SJ's concepts on this one for TFT.

JK

[Dave Crowell]

Perhaps a scale level of 1.5 km to the hex could be written in? That way we would maintain map continuity with Ogre/GEV. Who doesn't want tacnuke slinging Ogres in their game? ;)

OK, perhaps that is a crossover too far. But I am tempted to use GEV mas for RPG maps some time. I wonder how long it would take people to recognize them?

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Dave Crowell

Perhaps a scale level of 1.5 km to the hex could be written in? That way we would maintain map continuity with Ogre/GEV. Who doesn't want tacnuke slinging Ogres in their game? ;)

OK, perhaps that is a crossover too far. But I am tempted to use GEV mas for RPG maps some time. I wonder how long it would take people to recognize them?

Dave !! I can TOTALLY SEE a group of Orcs patrolling the distant perimeter around the out-laying area near their stronghold in a time-worn GEV!!!

THIS IDEA TOTALLY ROCKS! Totally Fantastic Cidri "technological artifact" content!

Okay, I am really hyped on this OGRE/GEV/TFT cross-over idea. How absolutely cool is THAT!

Dave, you sir, have just blown my creative-mind; and I am seeing a whole new John Carter of Mars vista for TFT opening up in my mind's eye.

WOW!

Thank you!

JK