GURPS Spaceships: Murphies, their fixes and alternatives

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Well, yes, that's one of the many ways in which the 2D nature of Spaceships "tactical" combat fails to model what it is supposed to model, i.e., combat-in-space. Basic Space Combat is less complex, and at least as good of a model of space combat as 2D tactical combat.

I don't see the issue. Are we actually worried about the effectiveness of saturating large volumes of space with gun rounds?

While, yes, there is more space to saturate in 3D, that's the difference between laughably useless and brain-hurtingly useless. Not an actual balance issue.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Langy

The reason that the amount of delta-V changes when timescale changes is that the amount of time over which you need to dodge changes.

Really? Because, as I see it, the amount of time you need to dodge, say, a ramming attempt or single missile or gun projectile shouldn't vary with timescale.

Number of attacks should probably have an effect, though.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Nope. 3D combat adds nothing but complexity. Combatants can move in 3-D but they almost never gain any advantage by doing so.

If there aren't ballistic weapons, and you only have two combatants, then 3D doesn't offer much tactical difference from 2D. But in that case, 2D doesn't make much tactical difference from 1D, either.

If there are ballistic weapons (particularly missiles) and/or more than two combatants, 3D makes a pretty big difference.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't see the issue. Are we actually worried about the effectiveness of saturating large volumes of space with gun rounds?

I'm more concerned about screwing up the tactical effect of multiple combatants on one side, particularly in a scenario where difference in weaponry on the various sides motivate the side that is outnumbered to want to maintain distance.

Effectiveness of ballistic weapons is a secondary concern.

In most cases where maneuvering isn't pointless to start with, 2D vs. 3D makes a big difference. In cases where maneuvering is pointless, why are you using a "tactical" combat system?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

If there aren't ballistic weapons, and you only have two combatants, then 3D doesn't offer much tactical difference from 2D. But in that case, 2D doesn't make much tactical difference from 1D, either.

If there are ballistic weapons (particularly missiles) and/or more than two combatants, 3D makes a pretty big difference.

I don't think so. Range bands in basic combat or SM mods in tactical wash out a lot of finicky detail.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

Really? Because, as I see it, the amount of time you need to dodge, say, a ramming attempt or single missile or gun projectile shouldn't vary with timescale.

Number of attacks should probably have an effect, though.

Number of attacks scales directly with time scale. You are correct that the amount of Delta-V (and time) needed to dodge a single missile or gun projectile doesn't change, but the amount of Delta-V (and time) needed to dodge 10 missiles or gun salvos is exactly 10 times the amount of Delta-V needed to dodge one of them, and the number of missiles and gun salvos encountered increases linearly with time - if the turn length is 100 seconds, you'll need to dodge 10 times as many projectiles as if it were 10 seconds.

[oldgringo2001]

One of the things that made US artillery the most feared in WWII was the Time on Target attack, where several batteries would time their fire so that all their shells landed at the same time. If you have the technology to make missiles hit a spaceship, you have the technology to make them arrive on the target in the same time. Any one ship would have to dodge all of them at once--and it likely would not. Point defense has to be divided up between the missiles rather than handling them one at a time. Provided it has the range to reach the target, a missile with terminal guidance has the same chance to hit at any time or distance scale.

[weby]

Several things, some immediately

the armor rules: It takes the same ammount of material to armor a dense ship than it does a non dense ship. Armoring hydrogen tanks is way too mass efficient.

food production: One open space is enough to provide food for a ship regardless of the number of people on the ship and you need more than one open space to provide excess food in your robotic ship.

Exterior clamps are way too massive and not dependant on the force it is subjected to. A deep space ship accelerating at 0.001G needs as massive connector as a shuttle accelerating at 3 g

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If you want to have spaceships maneuver like WWII fighters you need to have their speeds be in the same ratio to lightspeed weapons as WWII fighters are to machine gun bullets. That will be very fast indeed.

What would that ratio be?
Supermarine Spitfire: 605 km/h : 853.6 m/s = 0.19688 : 1
Mitsubishi A6M Zero: 533 km/h : 600 (or 750) m/s = 0.2468 (or 0.1974) : 1
P-51H Mustang: 784 km/h : 890 m/s = 0.2447 : 1
Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe: 900 km/h : 540 m/s = 0.463 : 1
Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet: 1060 km/h : 540 m/s = 0.5453 : 1

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Unless, perhaps ships are so undergunned that they can not penetrate their own armor at all.

Does that matter? The ships aren't fighting among themselves (their own type), they're fighting other ships (other types). An unarmed but lightly armored ship can't penetrate it's own armor, but it's still a reasonable design.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Langy

Number of attacks scales directly with time scale. You are correct that the amount of Delta-V (and time) needed to dodge a single missile or gun projectile doesn't change, but the amount of Delta-V (and time) needed to dodge 10 missiles or gun salvos is exactly 10 times the amount of Delta-V needed to dodge one of them, and the number of missiles and gun salvos encountered increases linearly with time - if the turn length is 100 seconds, you'll need to dodge 10 times as many projectiles as if it were 10 seconds.

Assuming that the launching ship had that many projectiles to fire in the first place, and actually fired all of them. Which it may or may not have. (Certainly not in the case of ramming attacks, when the "number of projectiles" the enemy can deploy is fixed pretty solidly.)