Altering the Initiative Order

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

It sounds awkwards. Well, take heavier armor to reduce your speed. :-P

Armor doesn't reduce your Basic Speed. Only your Move.

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Or maybe controlable disadvantage perk: lower speed. Maybe?

We definitely seem to be orbiting around "It's a perk".


I don't think the quirk is valid. There's no way, mechanically TO actually go after other people, so you can't take it as a quirk that you do it all the time. It's not in your power to do so. The only thing you can do, mechanically, is always Wait - which means you can never Move, Change Posture, Concentrate, etc, only Attack, All Out Attack, Ready, etc. Which is worth more than -1 points.

[Lord Carnifex]

I'm a little confused. Let me see if I understand the problem here.

Currently, the turn order in most combats is "Knight - Wizaed - Badguy"

and you'd like it to be "Wizard - Knight - Badguy"

or are willing to settle for "Wizard - Badguy - Knight"

right?

If you're willing to settle for W B K W B K W B K W B K..., why not just pick a relatively passive maneuver for the Knight's first turn, like All-Out Defense, Evaluate, or Do Nothing? Doing so would effectively change (K W B K W B K W B...) into K (W B K W B K W B...) which would seem to get you what you want.

Remember that spell durations and other intervals are judged from the one Wizard turn to the next Wizard turn - A spell with a one turn duration might take effect at the end of Wizard turn 1 and will last until the beginning of Wizard turn 2, effectively giving the Knight a turn between them. Thus if the spell casting is W* and the spell ending is #w, then the turn order with a one second spell might look like:

K, W* (casts spell), B, K, #(spell ends) W* (casts another spell), B, K, #(spell ends) W*, and so on. Each second of the spell duration, the Knight will get one turn to act.
...
If all of that is too complicated, and I were your GM, I'd probably allow you to declare your position in the turn order as any number less than your Basic speed, up to a maximum of your basic speed. The way I'd do it, you'd select your "effective basic speed" as the combat starts, but before anyone takes their first combat turn.

I don't see this breaking the game dramatically.

[RyanW]

One tangential issue that's been brought up here could be solved with the following perk:

Trigger Spell

You've learned how to hold a spell for a few moments and release it with a single thought. You can choose to treat the last turn of Concentrate in spell casting as though it were a Wait (with the response of "the spell is cast"). You must either complete the spell before your next turn or it dissipates, either way you pay the full energy cost. You must specialize by spell.

If combined with Continuous Ritual, each Concentrate to keep the ritual going also acts as a Wait. If you take any action other than Concentrate before the spell is cast, it dissipates as above.

[KingJohn]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

I'm a little confused. Let me see if I understand the problem here.

Currently, the turn order in most combats is "Knight - Wizaed - Badguy"

and you'd like it to be "Wizard - Knight - Badguy"

or are willing to settle for "Wizard - Badguy - Knight"

No. The SITUATION is Knight/Wizard/Monster.
The goal is Wizard/Knight/Monster.

If that has to happen Monster/Wizard/Knight, that's acceptible. The GOAL is to let the Knight act between the Wizard and the Monster, instead of letting the monster act after the Wizard and before the Knight.

The Knight and the Wizard in our hypothetical have BOTH won initiative. They both are acting before the Monster. They just want to swap places, and the Knight's Basic Speed is way up over the Wizard's.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

If you're willing to settle for W B K W B K W B K W B K..., why not just pick a relatively passive maneuver for the Knight's first turn, like All-Out Defense, Evaluate, or Do Nothing? Doing so would effectively change (K W B K W B K W B...) into K (W B K W B K W B...) which would seem to get you what you want.

No, because a Turnabout spell is countered by the monster turning around. So Wizard (Turnabout), Knight (SMASHY IN THE BACK HAHAHAHAHA), then Monster (I can't turn around, I am dead) becomes Wizard (Turnabout), Monster (I turn around) then Knight (awwwwwww).

[BaHalus]

The all out don't changes the sequence. The bad guy still acts before the knight.

I think I would allow the changing in combat order for free. I don't like the idea of a high speed being worse than a lower speed.

[KingJohn]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

The all out don't changes the sequence. The bad guy still acts before the knight.

I think I would allow the changing in combat order for free. I don't like the idea of a high speed being worse than a lower speed.

To be fair, the "worse" is entirely situational. The thing is, for *seven combats in a row*, I would rather have acted slower, behind the Cleric and Wizard, rather than up front with the Swashbuckler and the Scout.

Part of this has been that the combats have been flatly mook-tastic, with non-threatening enemies who are slow. Even then, I've found that any enemy who MIGHT act either before me, or after the Wizard? I'm better off ensuring that he acts after me and BEFORE the Wizard, so that the order runs Wiz/Me/Enemy. And it's worth giving him a round to make that happen, if he wants it.

[Dustin]

I don't see any problem with allowing the Knight to electively drop his Basic Speed at the very beginning of a fight (but only at the very beginning). There's a considerable risk that he will cede first action to a faster enemy, so it doesn't seem abusive.

What I wouldn't allow is for him to lurk on the first round to see who goes when, and then 'jump in' when he likes. Simply declare that for this fight, he is using a lower Basic Speed of value X, and determine turn order normally from there.

[Last Pawn]

Originally Posted by Dustin

I don't see any problem with allowing the Knight to electively drop his Basic Speed at the very beginning of a fight (but only at the very beginning). There's a considerable risk that he will cede first action to a faster enemy, so it doesn't seem abusive.

What I wouldn't allow is for him to lurk on the first round to see who goes when, and then 'jump in' when he likes. Simply declare that for this fight, he is using a lower Basic Speed of value X, and determine turn order normally from there.

This, all the way. You don't have to use your full move on a move maneuver. You don't have to use your full ST when you hit someone. So why should you have to use your full speed?

[Anaraxes]

Why should this be a pain *solely* because the Knight has a better DX *and wants to give it up*?

You're assuming that "going first" is some immense advantage that you have to "give up". That's not the case. Sometimes going earlier is good; sometimes not so good.

And it's worth giving him a round to make that happen, if he wants it.

You're not "giving him a round". You're going later, which is exactly what you asked for. You're still thinking in terms of a global D&D turn, rather than an endless cycle. You go both before everyone else and after them, depending on which of their maneuvers you want to consider.

You can't cast a spell using Wait.

Perhaps. I haven't checked the formal errata list. And "Concentrate" isn't in Basic's list of maneuvers you can use with Wait. Still, consider an oft-expressed principle that's one of the basic 4e changes:

Originally Posted by Kromm

We feel that if you can't interrupt an Attack or Ready without a Wait, you shouldn't be able to interrupt a Concentrate. Concentrate is to mental actions what Ready is to physical ones -- nothing more. We want Attack, Concentrate, and Ready to be equals: you Attack to use Innate Attack, Concentrate to use Mind Control, or Ready to turn on Invisibility, but each is one maneuver, its results happening the turn you choose it.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...0&postcount=30

Attack and Ready can both be used with Wait; seems like Concentrate should also qualify under this philosophy (however odd as "wait to concentrate" may sound in English -- we're talking game mechanics).

[Celjabba]

For me, it is a perk :
Coordinated fighter : At the start of a fight, and if not surprised, the fighter can lower down his turn order rank below one (or more) team mate. This assume they have fought and/or trained together before.

I would also allow it for free with a successful tactic roll at the beginning of the fight.

Celjabba