Altering the Initiative Order

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Was Move and Attack a legal choice for 6.00? I say yes. While not a legal option for the Wait maneuver, 6.00 technically didn't take a Wait maneuver. 6.00 simply chose not to act at their full Basic Speed.

Rules as written, 6.00 cheated with both hands, as he can't change when he acts without taking a Wait, with all the baggage that comes with wait (including having to declare at 6.0 what he's waiting for and what Maneuver he will be taking - he can't have a blank Wait).

For the house rule discussed in thread, 6.0 never acts at 6.0 again in that fight.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Was it okay for 6.00 to move 6 yards, even though he chose to act at as if he was a 4.75 player. I say yes.

Speed Is Not Ground Move.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Was it okay for him to act at 6.00 on the next round. I say no. Once your place in the combat turn sequence is set, you can't advance it.

I say no, totally not legit either in a RAW game, or with the houserule discussed. I would also recommend against using the described houserule, as it's just not a good idea.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

However, it could have gone this way:

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose Wait. After 5.00's turn (the trigger) I will Attack a foe that is in range (the action).

Totally RAW.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

So, when used in this fashion, a high Basic Speed can get two full Attack maneuvers in against a lower Basic Speed foe without the lower Basic Speed foe getting a maneuver in.

But the lower Basic Speed foe first got two full maneuvers, of unrestricted types - and he got to see that he was Waiting and ready to Attack! The foe walked into it despite that - he assumed the risk.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose to act last, as if I had a speed of only 4.75.

Well, at the start of combat it is legal to declare that you're operating at a lower Basic Speed (Kromm acknowledged that earlier in the thread), but then your Speed is fixed for the full combat! You may not change it again...
(Although possibly you could change later with taking a 1 round do-nothing-maneuver adapting to the combat rhythm, if you allow that house rule, but it's not RAW).

The secenario you're describing is exactly one of the abusive cases (2 turns in a row) why instantly changing speed during combat is not allowed.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I have Basic Speed 6.00, and my friends and foes have 5.75, 5.50, 5.25, and 5.00. The GM informs us it's time to go into combat rounds.

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose to act last, as if I had a speed of only 4.75.
GM: Fine. [GM handles maneuvers for the other player's turns.]
GM: Time for 4.75's to declare maneuvers. 6.00 acting as 4.75, what do you do?
6.00: I choose to Move and Attack. [The player moves a full 6 yards and attacks.]
GM: Okay, back to the top of the order. 6.00 is first.
6.00: I Attack the same guy I just attacked.
GM: Fine.

Questions:

Was Move and Attack a legal choice for 6.00? I say yes. While not a legal option for the Wait maneuver, 6.00 technically didn't take a Wait maneuver. 6.00 simply chose not to act at their full Basic Speed.

Was it okay for 6.00 to move 6 yards, even though he chose to act at as if he was a 4.75 player. I say yes.

Was it okay for him to act at 6.00 on the next round. I say no. Once your place in the combat turn sequence is set, you can't advance it.

However, it could have gone this way:

GM: 6.00 is first, choose your maneuver.
6.00: I choose Wait. After 5.00's turn (the trigger) I will Attack a foe that is in range (the action).
GM: Fine. [GM handles maneuvers for the other player's turns.]
GM: Okay, that's 5.00's turn. 6.00, your Wait is now triggered. There are two foes in range. Pick one and Attack. [6.00 does so.]
GM: Okay, back to the top of the order. 6.00, what do you do?
6.00: I Attack the same guy I just attacked.
GM: Fine.

So, when used in this fashion, a high Basic Speed can get two full Attack maneuvers in against a lower Basic Speed foe without the lower Basic Speed foe getting a maneuver in.

That all seems entirely correct, IMO.

Only one thing I still wonder -- if a high-Speed character wishes to revert to using their full Speed and take a higher place in the initiative sequence, should it be allowed if it will NOT have the effect of doubling-up on someone?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Rules as written, 6.00 cheated with both hands, as he can't change when he acts without taking a Wait ...

Um ... that's not right. Kromm just clarified on this thread that it's okay to act as if you have a lower Basic Speed.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Well, at the start of combat it is legal to declare that you're operating at a lower Basic Speed (Kromm acknowledged that earlier in the thread), but then your Speed is fixed for the full combat! You may not change it again...

Did Kromm say you can't change it?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Um ... that's not right. Kromm just clarified on this thread that it's okay to act as if you have a lower Basic Speed.

He did not say it was ok to change it once combat started, and he been on recked a few time the changing Initiative once combat has start is a bad idea so I don't think to follow that he can logical change back.

Basically you can chose to act slower but once you act you're locked into the 1 second cycle at the point you chose to act.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

He did not say it was ok to change it once combat started, and he been on recked a few time the changing Initiative once combat has start is a bad idea so I don't think to follow that he can logical change back.

Basically you can chose to act slower but once you act you're locked into the 1 second cycle at the point you chose to act.

I don't mind either way, but it just seemed that based on the example of people shepperding children that there is no particular realistic reason that they would not be able to accelerate back up to 'speed' if the need arose.

Clearly if it were abusive then it should be prevented, but it's not obvious to me that a rigid initiative order is the only way to stop abuse.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Did Kromm say you can't change it?

AFAIK he did not say it explicitly in this thread, but at other places he pointed out that it's very important to avoid changing the turn sequence/initiative after combat starts, because that breaks things. (2 turns in a row is very broken!)
It know it from a discussion about random initiative, where Kromm gave an interesting solution for that, but stressed that even with random initiative you should not re-set that order after each fighter took his or her turn.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Clearly if it were abusive then it should be prevented, but it's not obvious to me that a rigid initiative order is the only way to stop abuse.

It may well be, that there is another solution... Do you have a good one? ;) But the RAW solution is to avoid that problem with a fixed order. After all, avoid abuse, seems to be one of the main reasons why there are conditions for wait (the official way to interrupt the turn sequence).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by OldSam

It may well be, that there is another solution... Do you have a good one? ;)

I wonder if requiring a Do Nothing maneouvre in between would solve the problems?