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Old 10-19-2018, 08:58 AM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

Where did the 600 XP per year premise come from? If you play once a week or so, hand out 50-100 XP per week, and run a roughly 1:1 time campaign timeline, you'll earn several times this rate, even accounting for a month or two of healing down-time per year. The real reason it will be rare to get this talented is you'll get killed first (joke/not a joke).

Personally I'm all-in with the slow progression and difficulty reaching high 'level' powers. The game is much more interesting to play when characters are in that low to moderate power range. And, a hidden benefit I think people will appreciate as they start playing more, I think the new system will lead to much greater functional diversity in the sorts of characters people have, because you have to make more hard choices as to what sorts of abilities you want to have.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:20 AM   #12
The Wyzard
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

I've never delved into the magic item creation charts sufficiently to make sense of them. I had assumed there was some degree of additional expense built into the cost of magic items to account for the wizard blowing the roll every now and again. A DX of 13 gives you an 83% chance of success. Pretty good for combat, not so great for maybe screwing up several thousand silver worth of magic item effort and materials.

...

After further examination, no, they don't seem to be economically feasible. I ran the numbers on the Power Stone, and it looks like

5,000 list price
-180 for apprentices (I'm taking the $25 they net PLUS the $20 for bare subsistence living to arrive at an estimate of how much you pay them)
-1000 for the stone itself.
-3600 for 2x weeks at 1800 per week
220 left over for the wizard doing the enchantment.

Not much of an incentive for anyone accomplished enough to manage such an enchantment. It also doesn't include lab costs, which I didn't want to look up.

So, it seems to me that the list price is more like a rough estimate of what it would cost the PCs to get the apprentices and raw materials and so forth *if they did all the enchantment themselves.* Actually purchasing such an item or hiring a guild wizard to make it would necessarily cost a great deal more.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Where did the 600 XP per year premise come from? If you play once a week or so, hand out 50-100 XP per week...
Given the 102900 XP needed to get the ST 8, DX 15, IQ 20 wizard with GMIC, at 100 XP per playing week, that's only 20 years of playing time at 50 sessions per year.

Elvin or Goblin wizards (at ST 6) would only be five years of course.

Halfling wizards (at ST 4) would be less than two years.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by The Wyzard View Post
-1000 for the stone itself.
The stone itself is external to these costs because the value of the stone has no impact on the scalability of the enchantment.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:37 AM   #15
platimus
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by The Wyzard View Post
I've never delved into the magic item creation charts sufficiently to make sense of them. I had assumed there was some degree of additional expense built into the cost of magic items to account for the wizard blowing the roll every now and again. A DX of 13 gives you an 83% chance of success. Pretty good for combat, not so great for maybe screwing up several thousand silver worth of magic item effort and materials.

...

After further examination, no, they don't seem to be economically feasible. I ran the numbers on the Power Stone, and it looks like

5,000 list price
-180 for apprentices (I'm taking the $25 they net PLUS the $20 for bare subsistence living to arrive at an estimate of how much you pay them)
-1000 for the stone itself.
-3600 for 2x weeks at 1800 per week
220 left over for the wizard doing the enchantment.

Not much of an incentive for anyone accomplished enough to manage such an enchantment. It also doesn't include lab costs, which I didn't want to look up.

So, it seems to me that the list price is more like a rough estimate of what it would cost the PCs to get the apprentices and raw materials and so forth *if they did all the enchantment themselves.* Actually purchasing such an item or hiring a guild wizard to make it would necessarily cost a great deal more.
Yes, I consider most of those $ costs to be for PCs or "free-lance" wizards. Wizard Guild most likely gets deep volume discounts for common ingredients. On the other hand, who says the WG is motivated by profit to make magic items? All wizards must pay 1% of their earnings as dues to the local WG. They no doubt have other means of making money as well. Maybe their profit comes from high-volume sales. Maybe cheap magic items are simply a ploy to get magic items in the hands of the citizenry and thereby win popular influence over the local ruling lords. The owners of WG magic items might one day discover they have unknowingly been turned into sleeper agents when the WG attempts a coupe to grab absolute ruling power of Cidri.

Also, it doesn't seem absolute that the Wizard Guild actually pays their apprentices. The "Guild Scale" seem more like what it costs to "rent" an apprentice from the guild or a type of minimum-wage for apprentices where the guild exerts influence in a labor-union type of way.
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Last edited by platimus; 10-19-2018 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:39 AM   #16
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
If you play once a week or so, hand out 50-100 XP per week, and run a roughly 1:1 time campaign timeline, you'll earn several times this rate, even accounting for a month or two of healing down-time per year. The real reason it will be rare to get this talented is you'll get killed first (joke/not a joke).
TBH, I find the assumption of 50-100 XP per session problematic as well whether you are looking at XP progression by RAW or even some of the revised schedules that have been proposed in other threads.The premise that the rate at which a PC can earn XP remains flat over the course of their adventuring career is flawed IMO.

I may open a new thread to discuss this in more detail.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:40 AM   #17
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

Minimum cost GMIC route:

Halfling ST 4, DX 12, IQ 14
Spend 1000 XP to get to IQ 20 (ten playing sessions)
Spend another 500 XP to learn GMIC
Summon two greater demons to plus up your DX to 14. (Good luck!)
Then forge the one-ring.

Or (higher risk)
Goblin ST 6, DX 8, IQ 18
Spend 200 XP to get to IQ 20 (two playing sessions)
Spend another 500 XP to learn GMIC
Summon six greater demons to plus up your DX to 14. (Good luck!)
Then forge the one-ring.
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Last edited by hcobb; 10-19-2018 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:55 AM   #18
platimus
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Minimum cost GMIC route:

Halfling ST 4, DX 12, IQ 14
Spend 1000 XP to get to IQ 20 (ten playing sessions)
Summon two greater demons to plus up your DX to 14. (Good luck!)
Then forge the one-ring.
I think most people would rather take their chance with making the DX12 test once per week than trying to strike a deal with demons for DX14. I know I would.

If you end up doubling your time/$ costs in the creation, so what? Why does every wizard have to become a professional GMIC? They don't.
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Last edited by platimus; 10-19-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:44 AM   #19
The Wyzard
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The stone itself is external to these costs because the value of the stone has no impact on the scalability of the enchantment.
I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm trying to demonstrate that $5k isn't a reasonable price to buy a 5-point stone off-the-shelf; A scaled up N-point power stone isn't relevant to the argument I'm making. Although you're welcome, of course, to do the math on N-point power stones yourself, if you like.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:49 AM   #20
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Doing an example

Powerstone (5 points) is $5000 (not counting the gem).
At DX 10 that's 4 weeks at $1800 per week in ingredients or $7200, not counting employment costs or the critical failure chances.

Either the Wizard's Guild is giving stuff away to strangers out of the goodness of their hearts or Evil Stevie didn't consider the ripple effects of his change.
I think that's the issue, and the conclusion I see is simply that the listed cost has always been a starting point. The other actual costs are always added on when making the item. And that's still just the minimum starting point, unless it's some horrible item few people actually want.

And more importantly, in our campaigns at least (after some initial GM mistakes and consequences thinking people could just go buy a magic item for the listed cost), even the cost including expenses is only very rarely going to be the actual cost, because it is quite difficult and requires the time and attention of many wizards to make something powerful, and there are only so many (if any) wizards available, and the market for magic items includes people with a LOT of wealth and power and time and resources (e.g. lab time - how many labs are there?), so the actual market price is going to tend to be much higher for an item that a prince/duke/guildmaster or powerful wizard or other very wealthy/powerful person would want, because those with such items (if any) and willing to sell them (if any) will prefer (and/or be compelled to) sell to the best offer (taking into account power, threats, favors, and repeat customers).
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