They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Another is whether horses (and other mount animals) can have Very Fit at all, or if (as I'm inclined to assme) it is a taboo trait for them. And some information about how rare Fit horses are, in terms of a cost multiplier or CF or whatever.

According to Shawn Fisher, horses can have Very Fit. And if we ever get an e23 book on equines, he'd be the most likely to write it, so I think that's reasonably likely to become official at some point in the future.

As for guidelines on horse cost based on Fit and other factors, I'd like to see that in Low-Tech as well. Here's hoping that the Powers That Be agree.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by aesir23

there may have been small tin mines closer to the earliest civilizations that just didn't leave an archaeological record.

This, in a way, is the problem. One of the issues with ancient mines is that improving mining and smelting technology tend to insure that good mines get worked over for a very long time, with later workings blowing away any traces of earlier workings. So while trace quantities of tin have been found in a few places easily accessible to Mediterranean Bronze Age civilizations, there's no clear evidence of their use during that time. Consequently, people have tended to fall back on the idea of a prehistoric trade in tin from places like Cornwall, which is known to have been mined that early, though there's no clear evidence that tin from there was shipped so far away.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

It should be extremely rare. In fact, most animals should have Unfit - humans are built for endurance running. See also this.

I agree that Fit or Very Fit should be rare. I would think you'd only see animals with Fit in animals being specially trained (courier horses say), or special cicumstances (alpha bull or lioness, say).

I don't know that I agree with Unfit; I think that the state for the animal should be the "average". Now maybe some Domesticated animals or animals in zoos would have that disadvantage....

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

This, in a way, is the problem. One of the issues with ancient mines is that improving mining and smelting technology tend to insure that good mines get worked over for a very long time, with later workings blowing away any traces of earlier workings. So while trace quantities of tin have been found in a few places easily accessible to Mediterranean Bronze Age civilizations, there's no clear evidence of their use during that time. Consequently, people have tended to fall back on the idea of a prehistoric trade in tin from places like Cornwall, which is known to have been mined that early, though there's no clear evidence that tin from there was shipped so far away.

Yep. The alluvial tin deposits in Anatolia were definitely exploited during the Bronze Age.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

According to Shawn Fisher, horses can have Very Fit. And if we ever get an e23 book on equines, he'd be the most likely to write it, so I think that's reasonably likely to become official at some point in the future.

But should these traits come with a hefty Unusual Background? Or is the human-outmarathoning-the-horse a myth?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Molokh

But should these traits come with a hefty Unusual Background? Or is the human-outmarathoning-the-horse a myth?

As it happens, I hold a different view than Shawn here. You might want to ask him his reasons, as he is much more knowledgable about horses than I am.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Molokh

But should these traits come with a hefty Unusual Background? Or is the human-outmarathoning-the-horse a myth?

Wow, this part of the thread led me off into some interesting "fast research" paths - I had NO idea that they held "100 miles in one day" (24 hours) marathons for horse riders. Winners times since 1961 average out at just under 14 hours, over rough varied terrain, but with 8 spaced Veterinarian checkups over the route. (Source: Tevis Cup)

Additionally, there are 100 mile marathons run for humans, with one race called the "Western States 100 Mile Endurance", inspired by the Tevis cup, with what looks like similar terrain. The RECORD for that course is 15.5 hours, with this years winner being 16 hours. (Source: http://www.run100s.com/ultra.htm)
(Interesting note: REALLY "inspired by" - the fellow who started the Western States Race did so by running IN the Tevis along with the horses to "prove it could be done by a human". He finished in 23 hours 42 Minutes, against a 13 hour 55 Minute finish for the horse winner.)
(Procedural Note: I was just going to use the finish times averaged in that run100s link, but several of the races are unusual formats. Ex: A race held at 10,000'+ altitude for almost it's entire length, or in the Arctic in February)

I'd also mention, in addition to the very interesting Kudu hunt link posted by Asta, There's this Man v. Horse Marathon held every year in Wales & it took 25 years for the first human win.

OTOH, please note, none of the humans in any of these races is carrying a rider. :)

Finally - one thing I'll note about the difference between Cursorial hunting (As in that Kudu hunt link) and a "straight race" is that in hunting using endurance you would be working at "spooking" the animal and getting it to waste endurance (HT), so that you can pace it and take your time, and conserve your HT. I'll also note that I wouldn't want to try endurance hunting one of those horses that ran in the Tevis. :)

So:
A) If a horse can do 100 Miles in under 14 hours, I think they should be allowed to take Very Fit. :)
B) Humans ARE slower than _horses_ over the short and long haul, but it's not by as much as you mght think.
C) I'm feeling REALLY out of shape, right about now...

Disclaimer: Hey, I found all this stuff, I don't swear to it's accuracy and please remember that these are ALL stripped-down racers, and only applies to horses, so I don't to get any angry email from Camels and please, please, please, don't start the "Hiking" thread back up again. :)

[PK]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I'm not particularly convinced that GURPS overland travel rules interact properly with Fit and Very Fit, so that's one thing I'd like to see addressed.

Heheheheheheh....

Not laughing at you, Peter. Laughing because Fit, Very Fit, Unfit, and Very Unfit were originally created for horses, making this an ironically funny discussion!

Don't believe me? Buy Roleplayer #21, from the early days of GURPS Third Edition, and read the article The Noble Steed, by Ann Dupuis. She created the fitness traits specifically to better describe how close to ideal health a horse is.

So yeah. A horse can definitely have Very Fit. :)

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Heheheheheheh....
Not laughing at you, Peter. Laughing because Fit, Very Fit, Unfit, and Very Unfit were originally created for horses, making this an ironically funny discussion!
Don't believe me? Buy Roleplayer #21, from the early days of GURPS Third Edition, and read the article The Noble Steed, by Ann Dupuis. She created the fitness traits specifically to better describe how close to ideal health a horse is.
So yeah. A horse can definitely have Very Fit. :)

Actually, it's available on the sjgames Website:
The Noble Steed

I guess Peter's issue is how it interacts with the travel rules, which I'm not sure I see a problem with.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

It should be extremely rare. In fact, most animals should have Unfit - humans are built for endurance running. See also this.

Wouldn't it be better to simply give most animals fewer FP? As I recall, Fit (and Very Fit, Unfit, etc.) isn't supposed to be a racial trait at all.