They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

One more thing:

Buildings.

I'd very much like to know how many man-hours it takes to produce the materials to make a 16x8 feet log hut, and secondly how many man-hours it takes to build said log hut, and likewise with a 30 foot diameter stone tower 60 feet fall, and something like two dozen other typical examples. Preferably with the man-hours divided into unskilled labour (ST 12), semi-skilled labour (skill 9) and skilled labour (skill 12).

I know GURPS Architecture is available online, but it's rather a lot of work, and I also don't recall that it deals with materials procurement, as in quarrying out the stone blocks, or cutting down the required number of trees and de-branching them.

I guess this can be covered in CCoI follow up books, specifically one that tackles Manors (or Fiefs) and how much to expect in the creation of one. If building a structure is involved, the game would probably be shifting towards "strategy" on a macro level (as well as being usefull in a story).

If the question needs some immediate answers, TL4-ish stone villa for wealthy took roughly 10 years to be habitable and 20 years to be roughly complete. It took 2 generations to fully furnish a house will all the bells and wistles. Given how much different building materials. Such houses would be considered HT12 (meant to take on all the environs of the climate)

if of the same size,,,
and purely heavy wood, half the time it would take and HT-1,
and regular wood, brick and mud, 1/5 the time and HT-2.

Manor Houses or Villas are meant to house family (5 standard), extended Family (+50%), and Servants (+50%) (probably 10-12 people). Increase this by 50% every wealth level (I've heard of very wealthy families having a couple of other families living in the same Manor/Villa). Size Porportional to wealth doesnt change construction time.

It would be reasonable to assume a smaller structure would proportionally take less time.

TL would affect houses properties and construction materials.

Source: Ancestral Houses of the Philippines and Fief

[Peter Knutsen]

Sorry, but I'm not interested in how many years it takes to construct any given building, but in how many man-hours.

If a player with a Filthy Rich character wants something built FAST, he'll ask the GM to find an official rule for how one can speed up a construction process by hiring more labourers, carpenters or stone masons, i.e. throwing more money at the problem.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by nik1979

I guess this can be covered in CCoI follow up books, specifically one that tackles Manors (or Fiefs) and how much to expect in the creation of one.

One of the Companions has rules for architecture and construction, providing cost, time to build (in man-hours/days/months/years; how long it really takes to build something depends on available labor), HP, DR, and all that sort of thing. Think of it as an extension of the crafting rules (which are in the same volume), just for making very, very large items. It's not specifically relevant to feudal holdings and the like, though. It'll mostly be politically powerful or at least ambitious PCs who want to build buildings, but instead of rural strongholds, they could just as easily want to build or repair city walls, urban homes, temples to their gods, roads for their troops (or commerce), monuments to themselves, and so on.

[NorphTehDwarf]

Oooh, just thought of something really easy to do that'd be pretty nice: Weapon tables in a separate PDF, like y'all did with High Tech. That was really handy.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

Oooh, just thought of something really easy to do that'd be pretty nice: Weapon tables in a separate PDF, like y'all did with High Tech. That was really handy.

Probably armour tables too. My guess would be that Low-Tech will contain a lot more about armour selection than High-Tech does.

Not that I'd need that, but I'd think a lot of GURPS GMs and players would.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

One of the Companions has rules for architecture and construction, providing cost, time to build (in man-hours/days/months/years; how long it really takes to build something depends on available labor), HP, DR, and all that sort of thing. Think of it as an extension of the crafting rules (which are in the same volume)

Cool, except for the part where you seem to want to define how many hours of work there is in a month or year. That varies from setting to setting, and from charcter to character (Fit, Very Fit, Doesn't Sleep), and it gets even funkier if you throw magic at it, so I'd really prefer to be told in man-hours, and then given guidelines for how to convert man-hours into months and years and so forth.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Sorry, but I'm not interested in how many years it takes to construct any given building, but in how many man-hours.

If a player with a Filthy Rich character wants something built FAST, he'll ask the GM to find an official rule for how one can speed up a construction process by hiring more labourers, carpenters or stone masons, i.e. throwing more money at the problem.

An educated guess from interviews, anecdotes and what i've read.
Since the practice even up to the 19thC phils were pretty much the same as pre hispanic (15C) standard allocation of labor as common in many TL1-3 cultures that would be 20 hours per week (1/3 of the productive hours of a tenant), there would be roughly around 10 able bodied men their boys accessible in the lands of a wealthy individual. Thats around 10,400 hours a year half that for seasonal obstacles and because of these are tenants and they are not well cared for as well as not well compensated. 5,200 hours x 20 years would be 105k man hours.

Double the man hours if they are the same group who are "moving" and harvesting the raw materials.
Double the man hours with poor equipment or "capital"

In terms of cost, this actually just costs nothing to the land holder since he can take it out of the allocated labor tribute he receives from his villagers. If you want more productivity, paying people to do it would not be enough as money doesn't mean as much to a Low Tech society compared to Food and Social Security. Additional granted "privilages" (like extra weeks to hunt in their lord's woods), would be a slightly payment. If the lord were to actually make more provisions given more power and independence to farmers without removing the duties and rights the lord has over them (Like actually allocating more space for these farmers in their regular trade with city, like finding a way to "regulate" the Miller's services, or the creation of a pond for extra food and water security for the village) this will also be a more powerful incentive. Unfortunately having healthier and more secure people in one's land will mean more criticism of the inadequacies and inefficiencies of a status quo and even the Lord PC will have problems with his peers if his people will start grubbing about how their people complain how much better his village is compared to theirs.

Peasants, unlike serfs can move and peasants would migrate to better places and upset the man power balance and the status quo. If PCs want to go these Statesmen route it would be only natural to provide them the problem of changing any status quo- without such problems any improvement in efficiency is just too easy and the lack of any serious problematic consequences is a matter appropriate in a fantasy game where you're free to ignore sudden changes of status quo.

sometimes rpgs have a way of segwaying into political science :P

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

I really hope this particular rotting horse hasn't been beat into the ground yet, but what about alternative materials for weapons, armor, and suchlike?

For armor humans have used everything from wood to jade, and for weapons we've used pretty much everything but chalk (someone on the board is gonna prove me wrong on that last one, but you get my point). I'd like to see cost/damage/breakage statistics for these alternate materials. There've been a few threads about it in the past, but it'd be nice to see some general guidelines set in print to work with. If you give me, say, what a wood-tipped spear does damagewise, I can probably work out how it'd function were it made of mahogany or bamboo, but I'd kinda like that jumping-off point.

Without going into too much detail about when, where, and why... from personal experience I can tell you the following:

m203 grenade launcher + chalk training rounds = good way to stop a foe when dealing with rules of engagement which prohibit you from killing the foe


What you said brings up some very good points though. GURPS basic seems to assume that the majority of armor is built out of metal. I'd like to see a few examples of alternative materials.

[OldSam]

Will Low-Tech include some "Fantasy-Tech"?
(I mean tools, weapons, armor etc. that occur in low-tech fantasy settings but which are fictional and not realistic...)
If so, I'd strongly suggest that the fictional items are marked as such, so that it is clear which ones are (more or less) historically correct and which not.
I really like fantasy-style items (e.g. the huge swords from Final Fantasy or so :p) but for realistic games one must know what is fictional and what is not.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Will Low-Tech include some "Fantasy-Tech"?
(I mean tools, weapons, armor etc. that occur in low-tech fantasy settings but which are fictional and not realistic...)
If so, I'd strongly suggest that the fictional items are marked as such, so that it is clear which ones are (more or less) historically correct and which not.
I really like fantasy-style items (e.g. the huge swords from Final Fantasy or so :p) but for realistic games one must know what is fictional and what is not.

Shouldnt that be in DF?