They should really fix that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice!

[Icelander]

The long-awaited, nearly mythical, Cabaret Chicks on Ice* will be upon us at some point in the future.

This I swear.

Aye, I've seen that fabled manuscript.

Now, in the long and indeterminable days of the wilderness years, many was the time we'd come across some gaming situation and say: "Hold! Verily, this be waste from a farmyard animal!" We woulds't then discuss it among ourselves, sometimes with the beneficent input of our eternal Line Editor, and perhaps even reach some sort of consensus about how this rule or that could be much improved. Depending on our current state of mind, we might end on a note either hopeful or forlorn, saying: "Forsooth, they should really change this in CCoI!".

Unfortunately, I am not as young as I was**. I can't be sure that I've remembered all of these stimulating discussions and all those patent solutions to the vexing problems of gaming with TL0-TL4 technology. But I would never forgive myself if I went through the playtest without at least bringing such issues to the notice of the Powers That Be***.

To clarify, I'm not looking for extra material. There is plenty of dancing girls and no shortage of ice. The main challenge of the playtest will not be how to fill the books, it will be how to avoid making them bloated abominations that threathen to burst their earthly bindings.

What I am looking for are cases where the rules as they currently stand were insufficient to describe something that happened in a game (set between TL0-TL4) and the forumites (perhaps even including Kromm) discussed how the rules could have been expanded upon. And after having gotten a pretty good answer, it made you think: "Wow, they should totally include that in Cabaret Chicks on Ice. It adds next to no complexity to the current rules and it makes it much easier to stat something that was historically common!"

Or even, some contentious subject was discussed for a long time and Kromm (or someone else) finally made a brilliant ruling that wasn't in the books. When asked why it wasn't official, he'd say: 'Okay, that might need looking into. How about we discuss it during the CCoI playtest?'

You got anything?

Of course, I'll give no credit where it's due, instead trying to appropriate your ideas as my own, all in a vain attempt to score points with the playtest moderators and perhaps get my name in very small letters somewhere no one will ever read it.

I'll even smoke a cigar in a small room with my cronies and think about ways to oppress the little man.

But you won't care, because you'll know you've made GURPS a better game.

Altruism. It was always my favourite sin. ;)

*Known to some as Low-Tech.
**... for example, five minutes ago, when I was five minutes younger.
***In order for them sigh and send me off with a stinging rebuke, most likely. "You! Again! Haven't we told you that no one cares about the inconsistencies in the weapon tables for midget hermaphrodites and how they might be improved with proper dwarf-tossing rules!

[Mgellis]

I'm not sure if there is a section for vehicles in the new Low-Tech, but...

In Basic Set, High-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Changing Times, the baseline formula for vehicles was HP = 4 x cube root (weight in lbs.).

However, in Fantasy, the formula was HP = 8 x cube root (weight in lbs.)

I imagine the reason was that "unpowered" vehicles are "homogeneous," but this creates serious game balance and plausibility issues.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship should not have the same HP as a 4,000-ton TL 8 Perry-class frigate.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship is NOT a homogeneous block of wood. It is an extremely complex machine...it just happens to rely on wind power rather than diesel power or steam power or whatever.

So, if there are vehicles in Low-Tech, I hope this is taken into account when determining their HP.

Mark

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

I'm not sure if there is a section for vehicles in the new Low-Tech, but...

In Basic Set, High-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Changing Times, the baseline formula for vehicles was HP = 4 x cube root (weight in lbs.).

However, in Fantasy, the formula was HP = 8 x cube root (weight in lbs.)

I imagine the reason was that "unpowered" vehicles are "homogeneous," but this creates serious game balance and plausibility issues.

I'll avoid making any comment that could be construed as revealing anything from the manuscript.

All I'll say is that do you really believe that if there was even the slightest chance that the Fantasy stats not being fixed, I wouldn't say something? ;)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

So, if there are vehicles in Low-Tech, I hope this is taken into account when determining their HP.

It has been, after discussion with Kromm. Silly me, I took it that when the Basic Set said that vehicles with engines or other complex mechanisms were Unliving, it was implying that a rowboat or an oxcart was Homogenous. But then I checked the stats in the Basic Set and found that it was not so. I would not have done it that way, but it IS a precedent, so I've made the necessary changes.

Bill

[doctorevilbrain]

Icelander, why do you call Low Tech "Cabaret Chicks On Ice" ?

[Diomedes]

It's been an unofficial nickname for Low Tech 4e for years.

[Anaraxes]

Though the usage has mutated a bit over time to mean sometimes "a future GURPS book never actually to appear".

The name originally comes from a offhand reference by Kromm.

And whether we title it Low-Tech, Fantasy-Tech, or Cabaret Chicks on Ice is wholly immaterial to the issue of whether we make fixes or not.

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=200184

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain

Icelander, why do you call Low Tech "Cabaret Chicks On Ice" ?

Gather close to the fire, youngsters, and I'll spin ye a yarn.

'twas in the dark and ignorant days of yore, when the world was young, the Basic Set was but new writ and fearful creatures with blood-drinking fangs roamed the plains, a hunting for unwary youngsters who did not heed their elders and betters.

Gamers interested in historical campaigns were given short shrift and had to either accept what the tiny equipment section in the Basic Set gave them or make up their own equipment rules. They were terrible times.

The people prayed for deliverance from their saviour, The Line Editor. They asked Him, 'Oh, thou who art wise in the ways of GURPS, lift thine gaze over us and give unto us thine Low-Tech, as your predecessors did in the days of The Third Edition'. And He was sympathetic to their plight. He dispatched his servants from his Heavens to walk among the people to ascertain what his dutiful followers wanted from this book.

There were giants in the earth in those days.

But the servants, in their time among the people, saw other games than GURPS. They knew these games as a player knows role-playing games. And they begat offspring with these games, bastard offspring the likes of which good youngsters such as yourselves could never conceive in an aeon of time.

They suggested that instead of giving the people Low-Tech, The Line Editor should give them Fantasy-Tech. Historical accuracy was for pedants and peasants, double-headed axes and flail-swords were where it was at.

The multitude raised a great hue and cry. 'Oh, Great and Merciful Line Editor, thou who art in Montréal, what is this we hear about Fantasy-Tech? Did we not ask for Low-Tech that reads like a dry history textbook and has little utility in games other than those run by SCA-members with OCD and no hobbies that do not include at least a week of research to understand?'

And Kromm said unto them: 'Listen, you ungrateful lot, no one has approved anything about Fantasy-Tech. The Low-Tech book will be a gear catalogue that will aim to be useful to anyone running a campaign at TL0-TL4. This is going to happen no matter what anyone calls it, because GURPS is generic and univeral and we support a range of play styles that spans all the way from that weird Icelander who mumbles to himself while modelling armour penetration to the high-flying acrobatic kung fu of the games I run for myself in the shower. They could call this book Cabaret Chicks on Ice for all I care and it would still aim to be useful to the vast body of GURPS players and not just a narrow subset of them.'

Chastised, the people subsided. Then, someone realised that Kromm had promised the people that everyone would have what they wanted, just as soon as Cabaret Chicks on Ice was released.

There was general rejoicing, apart from that blasted segment of the tribe who is not happy about anything.

A few did not believe in the promised coming of the fabled CCoI, others said that once it was published, Nazis would once more ride dinosaurs and hunt down the forces of good. To those doubters, I say to ye, ye're a bunch of nancy-pantsed willow-wallowers an' should all bugger off.

Now, which of you whippersnappers is going to fetch me another ale? I find myself powerful thirsty after all this talespinning.

[Gavynn]

Ooooo ... great story Grandpa Icelander :)

[Rickoise]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

I'm not sure if there is a section for vehicles in the new Low-Tech, but...

In Basic Set, High-Tech, Ultra-Tech, and Changing Times, the baseline formula for vehicles was HP = 4 x cube root (weight in lbs.).

However, in Fantasy, the formula was HP = 8 x cube root (weight in lbs.)

I imagine the reason was that "unpowered" vehicles are "homogeneous," but this creates serious game balance and plausibility issues.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship should not have the same HP as a 4,000-ton TL 8 Perry-class frigate.

A 500-ton TL 4 sailing ship is NOT a homogeneous block of wood. It is an extremely complex machine...it just happens to rely on wind power rather than diesel power or steam power or whatever.

So, if there are vehicles in Low-Tech, I hope this is taken into account when determining their HP.

Mark

I'm sorry but this reminds me of the end of saving private Ryan when he shoots the tank with his pistol
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUmLaUlACp8 about 4 minutes into this vide0)